Tech bros just actively making the internet worse for everyone.
Tech bros just actively making
the internetsociety worse for everyone.FTFY.
Okay what about…what about uhhh… Static site builders that render the whole page out as an image map, making it visible for humans but useless for crawlers 🤔🤔🤔
Accessibility gets throw out the window?
Increasingly, I’m reminded of this: Paul Bunyan vs. the spam bot (or how Paul Bunyan triggered the singularity to win a bet). It’s a medium-length read from the old internet, but fun.
I know this is the most ridiculous idea, but we need to pack our bags and make a new internet protocol, to separate us from the rest, at least for a while. Either way, most “modern” internet things (looking at you, JavaScript) are not modern at all, and starting over might help more than any of us could imagine.
Like Gemini?
From official Website:
Gemini is a new internet technology supporting an electronic library of interconnected text documents. That’s not a new idea, but it’s not old fashioned either. It’s timeless, and deserves tools which treat it as a first class concept, not a vestigial corner case. Gemini isn’t about innovation or disruption, it’s about providing some respite for those who feel the internet has been disrupted enough already. We’re not out to change the world or destroy other technologies. We are out to build a lightweight online space where documents are just documents, in the interests of every reader’s privacy, attention and bandwidth.
Won’t the bots just adapt and move there too?
Yep! That was exactly the protocol on my mind. One thing, though, is that the Fediverse would need to be ported to Gemini, or at least for a new protocol to be created for Gemini.
Is there nightshade but for text and code? Maybe my source headers should include a bunch of special characters that then give a prompt injection. And sprinkle some nonsensical code comments before the real code comment.
I think the issue is that text uses comparatively very little information, so you can’t just inject invisible changes by changing the least insignificant bits - you’d need to change the actual phrasing/spelling of your text/code, and that’d be noticable.
Maybe like a bunch of white text at 2pt?
Not visible to the user, but fully readable by crawlers.
If a bot can’t read it, nor can a visually impaired user.
Well if it’s a prompt injection to fuck with llms you don’t want any users having to read it anyway, vision impaired or no.
You missed my point. A prompt injection to fuck with LLMs would be read by a visually impaired user’s screen reader.
Is there a migration tool? If not would be awesome to migrate everything including issues and stuff. Bet even more people woild move.
Codeberg has very good migration tools built in. You need to do one repo at a time, but it can move issues, releases, and everything.
There are migration tools, but not a good bulk one that I could find. It worked for my repos except for my unreal engine fork.
There once was a dream of the semantic web, also known as web2. The semantic web could have enabled easy to ingest information of webpages, removing soo much of the computation required to get the information. Thus preventing much of the air crawling cpu overhead.
What we got as web2 instead was social media. Destroying facts and making people depressed at a newer before seen rate.
Web3 was about enabling us to securely transfer value between people digitally and without middlemen.
What crypto gave us was fraud, expensive jpgs and scams. The term web is now even so eroded that it has lost much of its meaning. The information age gave way for the misinformation age, where everything is fake.
Much drama.
I agree about semantic web, but the issue is with all of the Internet. Both its monopoly as the medium of communication, and its architecture.
And if we go semantic for webpages, allowing the clients to construct representation, then we can go further, to separate data from medium, making messages and identities exist in a global space, as they (sort of, need a better solution) do in Usenet.
About the Internet itself being the problem - that’s because it’s hierarchical, despite appearances, and nobody understands it well. Especially since new systems of this kind are not being built often, to say the least, so the majority of people using the Internet doesn’t even think about it as a system. It takes it for given that this is the only paradigm for the global network. And that it’s application-neutral, which may not be true.
20 years ago, when I was a kid, people would think and imagine all kinds of things about the Internet and about the future and about ways all this can break, and these were normal people, not tech types, and one would think with time we wouldn’t become more certain, as it becomes bigger and bigger.
OK, I’m just having an overvalued idea that the Internet is poisoned. Bad sleep, nasty weather, too much sweets eaten. Maybe that movement of packets on the IP protocol can somehow give someone free computation, with enough machines under their control, by using counters in the network stack as registers, or maybe something else.
Web3 was about enabling us to securely transfer value between people digitally and without middlemen.
It’s ironic that the middlemen showed up anyway and busted all the security of those transfers
You want some bipcoin to buy weed drugs on the slip road? Don’t bother figuring out how to set up that wallet shit, come to our nifty token exchange where you can buy and sell all kinds of bipcoins
oh btw every government on the planet showed up and dug through our insecure records. hope you weren’t actually buying shroom drugs on the slip rod
also we got hacked, you lost all your bipcoins sorry
At least, that’s my recollection of events. I was getting my illegal narcotics the old fashioned way.
You want some bipcoin to buy weed drugs on the slip road? Don’t bother figuring out how to set up that wallet shit, come to our nifty token exchange where you can buy and sell all kinds of bipcoins
Maybe I’m slow today, but what is this referencing? Most dark web sites use Monero. Is there some centralized token that people used instead?
Edit: Oh, I guess you’re referring to Mt.Gox? I mean yeah, people were pretty stupid for keeping their bitcoin in exchange wallets (and sending it right to the drug dealers directly from there? Real dumb). That’s always a bad idea. I don’t think they transferred it there instead of something else, they just never took custody of the coins after buying them on the exchange.
also we got hacked, you lost all your bipcoins sorry
aaaaaaaaand - it’s gone!
the old fashioned way.
A whole swath of trained toads using a special made tube network?
getting into a car with a stranger who said he was 15 minutes away two hours ago
Holy shit do I not miss that lifestyle
Nah, they clearly meant in liquid form.
Capitalism is grand, innit. Wait, not grand, I meant to say cancer
I feel like half of the blame capitalism gets is valid, but the other half is just society. I don’t care what kind of system you’re under, you’re going to have to deal with other people.
Oh, and if you try the system where you don’t have to deal with people, that just means other people end up handling you.
The neat part is that anything bad that happens under capitalism is capitalism’s fault, but anything good that happens is actually socialism happening in spite of capitalism, somehow.
It matters a lot though what kind of goal the system incentivises. Imagine if it was people’s happiness and freedom instead of quarterly profits.
In this case it is purely fault of the money incentive though. Noone would spend so much effort and computation power on AI if they didn’t think it could make them money.
The funniest part is though that it’s only theoretical anyway, everyone is only losing on it and they’re most likely never gonna make it back.
Sound like it went the same way everything else went. The less money is involved the more trustworthy it is.
Mr. Internet, tear down these walls! (for all these walled gardens)
Return the internet to the wild. Let it run feral like dinosaurs on an island.
Let the grannies and idiots stick themselves in the reservations and asylums run by billionaires.
Let’s all make Neocities pages about our hobbies and dirtiest, innermost thoughts. With gifs all over.
I’m down with that. Web 1.5? Let’s do it. I’ll get my Geocities page up and then we can rev up that hit counter.
https://homestarrunner.com/toons/backtoawebsite
“Lemme get that hit counter!”
Web3 was about enabling us to securely transfer value between people digitally and without middlemen
I don’t think it ever was that, I think folding ideas has the best explanation of what it was meant to be, it was meant to be a way to grab power, away from those who already have it
Preach!
Can there be a challenge that actually does some maliciously useful compute? Like make their crawlers mine bitcoin or something.
Did you just say use the words “useful” and “bitcoin” in the same sentence? o_O
The saddest part is, we thought crypto was the biggest waste of energy ever and then the LLMs entered the chat.
At least LLMs produce something, even if it’s slop, all crypto does is… What does crypto even do again?
Monero allows you to make untraceable transactions. That can be useful.
The encryption schemes involved (or what I understand of them, at least) are pretty rad imo. That’s why it interests me.
Still, it’s proof of work, which is not great.
It gives people with already too much money a way to invest by gambling without actually helping society.
for the biggest crypto investors it isn’t even really gambling. they use celebrities to hype a memecoin and then rug pull and split the profits harvested from the celebrity’s fans.
Crypto does drug sales and fraud!
It also makes it’s fans poorer, which at least is funny, especially since they never learn
Blockchain m8 gg
ouch. I never made that comparison, but that is on point.
Bro couldn’t even bring himself to mention protein folding because that’s too socialist I guess.
LLMs can’t do protein folding. A specifically-trained Machine Learning model called AlphaFold did. Here’s the paper.
Developing, training and fine tuning that model was a research effort led by two guys who got a Nobel for it. Alphafold can’t do conversation or give you hummus recipes, it knows shit about the structure of human language but can identify patterns in the domain where it has been specifically and painstakingly trained.
It wasn’t “hey chatGPT, show me how to fold a protein” is all I’m saying and the “superhuman reasoning capabilities” of current LLMs are still falling ridiculously short of much simpler problems.
The crawlers for LLM are not themselves LLMs.
They can’t bitcoin mine either, so technical feasibility wasn’t the goal of my reply
You’re 100% right. I just grasped at the first example I could think of where the crawlers could do free work. Yours is much better. Left is best.
deleted by creator
Hey dipshits:
The number of mouth-breathers who think every fucking “AI” is a fucking LLM is too damn high.
AlphaFold is not a language model. It is specifically designed to predict the 3D structure of proteins, using a neural network architecture that reasons over a spatial graph of the protein’s amino acids.
- Every artificial intelligence is not a deep neural network algorithm.
- Every deep neural network algorithm is not a generative adversarial network.
- Every generative adversarial network is not a language model.
- Every language model is not a large language model.
Fucking fart-sniffing twats.
$ ./end-rant.shdeleted by creator
I went back and added “malicious” because I knew it wasn’t useful in reality. I just wanted to express the AI crawlers doing free work. But you’re right, bitcoin sucks.
To be fair: it’s a great tool for scamming people (think ransomware) :/
Great for money laundering.
Is it? Don’t you risk losing a rather large percentage of the value.
Just by cars or something as they are much better at keeping their value. Also if somebody asks where did you get all this money from you can just point to the car and say, I sold that.
Not without making real users also mine bitcoin/avoiding the site because their performance tanked.
Anubis isn’t supposed to be hard to avoid, but expensive to avoid. Not really surprised that a big company might be willing to throw a bunch of cash at it.
This is what I’ve kept saying about POW being a shit bot management tactic. Its a flat tax across all users, real or fake. The fake users are making money to access your site and will just eat the added expense. You can raise the tax to cost more than what your data is worth to them, but that also affects your real users. Nothing about Anubis even attempts to differentiate between bots and real users.
If the bots take the time, they can set up a pipeline to solve Anubis tokens outside of the browser more efficiently than real users.
Yeah but ai companies are losing money so in the long run Anubis seems like it should eventually return to working.
It’s the usual enshittification tactic. Make AI cheap so companies fire tech workers. Keep it cheap long enough that we all have established careers as McDonald’s branch managers, then whack up the prices once they’re locked in.
Costs of solving PoW for Anubis is absolutely not a factor in any AI companies budget. Just the costs of answering one question is millions of times more expensive than running sha256sum for Anubis.
Just in case you’re being glib and mean the businesses will go under regardless of Anubis: most of these are coming from China. China absolutely will keep running these companies at a loss for the sake of strategic development.
Thanks for the info 👍 would not have thought Anubis would be so irrelevant
What the alternative?
Not much for open source solutions. A simple captcha however would cost scrapers more to crack than Anubis.
But when it comes to “real” bot management solutions: The least invasive solutions will try to match User-Agent and other headers against the TLS fingerprint and block if they don’t match. More invasive solutions will fingerprint your browser and even your GPU, then either block you or issue you a tracking cookie which is often pinned to your IP and user-agent. Both of those solutions require a large base of data to know what real and fake traffic actually looks like. Only large hosting providers like CloudFlare and Akamai have that data and can provide those sorts of solutions.
No, it’s expensive to comply (at a massive scale), but easy to avoid. Just change the user agent. There’s even a dedicated extension for bypassing Anubis.
Even then AI servers have plenty of compute, it realistically doesn’t cost much. Maybe like a thousandth of a cent per solve? They’re spending billions on GPU power, they don’t care.
I’ve been saying this since day 1 of Anubis but nobody wants to hear it.
The website would also have to display to users at the end of the day. It’s a similar problem as trying to solve media piracy. Worst comes to it, the crawlers could read the page like a person would.
Crazy. DDoS attacks are illegal here in the UK.
The problem is that hundreds of bad actors doing the same thing independently of one another means it does not qualify as a DDoS attack. Maybe it’s time we start legally restricting bots and crawlers, though.
So, sue the attackers?
I feel like at some point it needs to be active response. Phase 1 is a teergrube type of slowness to muck up the crawlers, with warnings in the headers and response body, and then phase 2 is a DDOS in response or maybe just a drone strike and cut out the middleman. Once you’ve actively evading Anubis, fuckin’ game on.
I think the best thing to do is to not block them when they’re detected but poison them instead. Feed them tons of text generated by tiny old language models, it’s harder to detect and also messes up their training and makes the models less reliable. Of course you would want to do that on a separate server so it doesn’t slow down real users, but you probably don’t need much power since the scrapers probably don’t really care about the speed
I love catching bots in tarpits, it’s actually quite fun
Some guy also used zip bombs against AI crawlers, don’t know if it still works. Link to the lemmy post
Yeah that was my thought. Don’t reject them, that’s obvious and they’ll work around it. Feed them shit data - but not too obviously shit - and they’ll not only swallow it but eventually build up to levels where it compromises them.
I’ve suggested the same for plain old non-AI data stealing. Make the data useless to them and cost more work to separate good from bad, and they’ll eventually either sod off or die.
A low power AI actually seems like a good way to generate a ton of believable - but bad - data that can be used to fight the bad AI’s. It doesn’t need to be done real-time either as datasets can be generated in advance
A low power AI actually seems like a good way to generate a ton of believable - but bad - data that can be used to fight the bad AI’s.
Even “high power” AIs would produce bad data. It’s currently well known that feeding AI data to an AI model decreases model quality and if repeated, it just becomes worse and worse. So yea, this is definitely viable.
The problem is primarily the resource drain on the server and tarpitting tactics usually increase that resource burden by maintaining the open connections.
The idea is that eventually they would stop scraping you cause the data is bad or huge. But it’s a long term thing, it doesn’t help in the moment.
The promise of money — even diminishing returns — is too great. There’s a new scraper spending big on resources every day while websites are under assault.
In the paraphrased words of the finance industry: AI can stay stupid longer than most websites can stay solvent.
Wasn’t this called black ice in Neuromancer? Security systems that actively tried to harm the hacker?
These crawlers come from random people’s devices via shady apps. Each request comes from a different IP
Most of these AI crawlers are from major corporations operating out of datacenters with known IP ranges, which is why they do IP range blocks. That’s why in Codeberg’s response, they mention that after they fixed the configuration issue that only blocked those IP ranges on non-Anubis routes, the crawling stopped.
For example, OpenAI publishes a list of IP ranges that their crawlers can come from, and also displays user agents for each bot.
Perplexity also publishes IP ranges, but Cloudflare later found them bypassing no-crawl directives with undeclared crawlers. They did use different IPs, but not from “shady apps.” Instead, they would simply rotate ASNs, and request a new IP.
The reason they do this is because it is still legal for them to do so. Rotating ASNs and IPs within that ASN is not a crime. However, maliciously utilizing apps installed on people’s devices to route network traffic they’re unaware of is. It also carries much higher latency, and could even allow for man-in-the-middle attacks, which they clearly don’t want.
Honestly, man, I get what you’re saying, but also at some point all that stuff just becomes someone else’s problem.
This is what people forget about the social contract: It goes both ways, it was an agreement for the benefit of all. The old way was that if you had a problem with someone, you showed up at their house with a bat / with some friends. That wasn’t really the way, and so we arrived at this deal where no one had to do that, but then people always start to fuck over other people involved in the system thinking that that “no one will show up at my place with a bat, whatever I do” arrangement is a law of nature. It’s not.
Or your TV or IOT devices. Residential proxies are extremely shady businesses.
Yep
Is that really true? I guess I have no reason to doubt it, I just hadn’t heard it before.
Here’s one example of a proxy provider offering to pay developers to inject their proxies into their apps. (“100% ethical proxies” because they signed a ToS). Another is BrightData proxies traffic through users of their free HolaVPN.
IOT and smart TVs are also obvious suspects.
Yes. A nonprofit organization in Germany is going to be launching drone strikes globally. That is totally a better world.
Its also important to understand that a significant chunk of these botnets are just normal people with viruses/compromised machines. And the fastest way to launch a DDOS attack is to… rent the same botnet from the same blackhat org to attack itself. And while that would be funny, I would also rather orgs I donate to not giving that money to blackhat orgs. But that is just me.
Right
Question: those artificial stupidity bots want to steal the issues or want to steal the code? Because why they’re wasting a lot of resources scraping millions of pages when they can steal everything via SSH (once a month, not 120 times a second)
they just want all text
That would require having someone with real intelligence running the scraper.
Gosh. Corporations are rampantly attempting to access resources so they can perform copyright infringement en-masse. I wonder if there is a legal mechanism to stop them? Oh, no there isn’t because our government is fully corrupted.
I think, in this particular case, it’s aggressive apathy/incompetence and not malice. Remember, Trump didn’t even know what Nvidia was.
AI’s don’t have a skin color or use the bathroom so you can’t whip your cult into a frenzy by Othering it. You can’t solidify your fascism by getting bogged down in the details of IP law.
Just say that the AI will be used to train the immigrants to take der jerbs.
Yeah, I was gonna say… there are definitely way to push anything AI related into an unrelated existing outgroup. Just say the liberals are using AI to steal elections and BAM, just like that you’ve got all the MAGA zombies hating AI.
I mean, we really have to ask ourselves - as a civilization - whether human collaboration is more important than AI data harvesting.
I was fine before the AI.
The biggest customer of AI are the billionaires who can’t hire enough people for their technofeudalist/surveillance capitalism agenda. The billionaires (wannabe aristocrats) know that machines have no morals, no bottom lines, no scruples, don’t leak info to the press, don’t complain, don’t demand to take time off or to work from home, etc.
AI makes the perfect fascist.
They sell AI like it’s a benefit to us all, but it ain’t that. It’s a benefit to the billionaires who think they own our world.
AI is used for censorship, surveillance pricing, activism/protest analysis, making firing decisions, making kill decisions in battle, etc. It’s a nightmare fuel under our system of absurd wealth concentration.
Fuck AI.
I think every company in the world is telling everyone for a few months now that what matter is AI data harvesting. There’s not even a hint of it being a question. You either accept the AI overlords or get out of the internet. Our ONLY purpose it to feed the machine, anything else is irrelevant. Play along or you shall be removed.
We need to poison better.
get out of the internet.
At some point, this would be the best option, sadly
For mbin I managed to kill the attack of the scrapers only using cloudflare managed challenge for all except to fediverse post endpoints, from fediverse ua agents on certain get endpoints. Managed challenge on everything else.
So far, they’ve not gotten past it. But, a matter of time.
man, you’d think they’d just use the actual activitypub protocol to inhale all that data at once and not bother with costly scraping.
This A aint very I
AI was never intelligent. It’s a marketing term, that’s all. It has absolutely no meaning.
Same for all the WordPress blogs, by default in all of them there’s an API without authentication that lets you download ALL the posts in an easy JSON.
Dear artificial stupidity bot… WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU FUCKING SCRAPING THE WHOLE PAGE 50 TIMES A SECOND???
Well the posts to inbox are generally for incoming info. Yes, there’s endpoints for fetching objects. But, they don’t work for indexing, at least not on mbin/kbin. If you have a link, you can use activitypub to traverse upwards from that object to the root post. But you cannot iterate down to child comments from any point.
The purpose is that say I receive an “event” from your instance. You click like on a post I don’t have on my instance. Then the like event has a link to the object for that on activitypub. If I fetch that object it will have a link to the comment, if I fetch the comment it will have the comment it was in reply to, or the post. It’s not intended to be used to backfill.
So they do it the old fashioned way, traversing the human side links. Which is essentially what I lock down with the managed challenge. And this is all on the free tier too.
