AP and Reuters have run with the initial claims coming from Hamas that the hospital was struck by an Israeli airstrike. This article disputes that.
Israel investigates Israel and finds no wrong-doing, reports Israel news agency. More at 11.
I get people not taking the IDF at face value, but Hamas ain’t exactly trustworthy, either.
It’s not about Hamas. It’s not even about the truth. Fact of the matter is no one would put it past the Israeli government or IDF blowing up a hospital.
And Hamas has a history of using human shields and suicide bombers. You’d put it past them to blow their own shit up and blame Israel?
I certainly don’t trust Israel but I would also not put it past Hamas and IJ to use a rocket launch site at or near a hospital for cover.
And then you think the reasonable response is to blow up a hospital?
No, I’m saying it’s plausible that this was a malfunctioning rocket.
Under the rules warfare. Yes.
Don’t use protected sites to avoid a response.
Hamas has a history of using ambulances to move troops and ammo around.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shifa_Hospital
Hamas put their headquarters there…
Did you even read my post?
I guess it would be helpful if the IDF wasn’t blowing up journalists, again.
I realized that Lemmy is pro Palestine, maybe hamas too from my observation since the assault
The IDF claims this was caused by a mid-fire of Hamas rockets. Both sides have provided the exact same amount of evidence, zero. Maybe wait before hoping back on the anti-Israel bandwagon.
There is nothing wrong with being distrustful of blatant propaganda.
I mean… Do we really believe that propaganda is something that only one side of this conflict engages in?
Hamas claims it was Israel, and Israel claims it was Hamas.
Both have a possible motive, and both had the opportunity.
Both have every reason to lie about it or otherwise spin up a narrative that will embolden their support.The fact remains that one of them did it, either intentionally or incidentally, and they are both certain to blame the other regardless. In the end, I don’t know the truth, nor do you, or the media, or even the victims of the attack themselves. It’s just another sad example of the cycle of needless violence and the massive humanitarian disaster that this situation is, has been, and will only continue to be for the foreseeable future. No matter which way we look, its the innocent people who seem to suffer the most.
We can only hope that the genuine objective truth behind this attack somehow comes to light and whoever is responsible for it is held accountable.
I think you are falling into whataboutism.
Just because they expressed skepticism of one sides propaganda doesn’t mean they would accept the other side’s propaganda at face value.
I don’t think what I said is whataboutism–at least that wasn’t my intent.
I’m simply pointing out the few facts as we know them right now, as well as the extremely high degree of uncertainty around what actually happened.
I’m not on Israel’s side, I just want the truth…
Sadly, and to my point, truth is not something we can expect from either side of this conflict. Because as I was trying to point out, both sides might have had motive, both sides certainly had the opportunity, and both sides are basically certain to blame the other side regardless of what happened. So…
Both sides have provided the exact same amount of evidence, zero. Maybe wait before hoping back on the […] bandwagon.
I think I tend to agree with the comment up the chain, that the best and most reasonable course of action is to wait for whatever evidence exists to surface before we collectively decide to buy into either side’s narrative about what happened. Talk is cheap, but I think anything that’s true can be proved, given enough time.
Please explain where he used whataboutism? Where did he relativise one evil with another?
It’s all there is from both sides until the situation is investigated more closely.
So when the IDF says it, it’s propaganda, but when Hamas says it, despite video evidence to the contrary, it’s fact
Nobody said that… but have fun arguing with your own little straw man.
Evidence is paramount, there is zero reason to believe either side without it. Hamas can’t be trusted at face value, and Israel has not only released false information but has directly lied to allies in the past as well. Neither side can be trusted to provide accurate information.
There’s clear evidence that Israel has weaponry capable of an explosion like this, and zero evidence that Hamas does. Israel is also constantly changing their story on this as well. Seems pretty straightforward to me.
In an absence of evidence, I’ll stand against the oppressors every time, thanks.
My tongue-in-cheek comment was more meant to make people pause and think before accepting any propaganda full face.
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The video of the strike looks pretty successful and not failed
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anti Israeli
You lost me here. Civilians do not deserve this bullshit.
I get where you’re coming from but no one said anything about harming the civilians. The idea is to dissolve Israel and make them citizens of a secular united Palestine.
How would Hamas, an offshoot of the Muslim brotherhood, possibly create a secular united Palestine?
Is this a real question? The Fatah.
But I don’t understand. Do you think the middle east is incapable of having a democratic election?
Do you think dissolving an entire internationally accepted country is the most reasonable solution? So Fatah takes over Israel, and all will be well? The millions of Jews will be safe? Hamas will just disappear? The Hamas that was voted for and won an election after the demilitarization in 2005. The one who has had many officials state doing horrible things to Jews is a blessing. They’ll just be gone, right? Oh but we are talking about a single state solution. So when the 9.5 million people currently in Israel outvote the 5 million people currently in the Palestinian territories… that’ll be ok right?
I’ll take “Things That Will Never Happen”, for $600 Alex.
The US will never give the land back to the Natives but I wouldn’t be mad if a Native that said “the land does not belong to the US”
¯_(ツ)_/¯
That was hundreds of years ago. If we can go hundreds them why not back to the when the kingdom of Saul? Or perhaps, since all people started somewhere in Africa, we should all be forced to cram into one small area of Africa. That way we can be sure no one is living on conquered land. Only the land we evolved into humans on.
The natives in the US experienced horrible things including genocide. But there is no changing what happened. Currently, the Sioux nation tribes have chosen not to accept $1.2 billion after they successfully sued the US government for confiscating land from them agreed upon Ina treaty. To do so, they argue, would mean giving up any claim on the land. However, they have managed to purchase some of the land and gotten the US government to recognize it as part of the Indian trust. And they continue to work to get back more. Whether they would be more capable doing that with $1.2 billion is a whole discussion. But setting that aside, suppose the tribes instead starting murdering the people who currently live in Black hills. How do you suppose that would work out?
We do not get to just ignore current state of the world. Israel has been a recognized country since 1948. Jews have had a presence there since biblical times. It isn’t going away. But Palestine can become a country as well. Accepting Israel’s right to exist is part of that. Hamas will not achieve its goal. And what kind of moral stance is it that they should?
Well, I have some difficulties seeing Hamas or even Fatah participating peacefully to a secular Palestinian government. Two states living next to each other remains the only possible solution for at least a hundreds year. But Israel needs to make concessions to Fatah if one wants a chance to have a long enough peace to starts mending the civil society.
I’m in favor of a two state solution or a one state solution. But my opinion isn’t important. Hamas is in favor of a two state solution and so are the Israeli people.
Just point out that lack of Israel does not strictly mean death of the Israelis. Lots of people think a one state solution is best because it would prevent the second class citizenship currently present in Israel.
Here is reporting from Check Your Fact that the video showing a failed Hamas rocket is from 2022 and has been circulating previously to this event
A video shared on X, the platform formerly known as Twitter, allegedly shows a “failed rocket launch” from Hamas that purportedly caused the collapse of a Gaza hospital on Tuesday.
Another video showing a failed rocket launch from Hamas. pic.twitter.com/53zTr5oN0L — 🇮🇱🌵 Mooning Knight 🌵🇮🇱 (@IsraeliSabra) October 17, 2023Verdict: False
The video is miscaptioned. It was actually taken in 2022 and is entirely unrelated to the recent attack on a hospital in Gaza.
Fact Check:
At least 500 people are estimated to have been killed from an explosion on the al-Ahli Baptist Hospital in the Gaza Strip Oct. 17, with the cause of the explosion currently unknown, according to Reuters. Thousands of displaced people were sheltering there, and more victims are still being discovered in the rubble, CNN reports.
A video taken at night appears to show a rocket launch that soars into the air before turning sharply and falling on an urban area. “Another video showing a failed rocket launch from Hamas,” the caption reads.
The video was not taken recently, however. It was originally posted on X in August 2022.
כך נראה שיגור כושל של הגי’אהד האיסלמי לתוך הרצועה pic.twitter.com/bVE53OUSUD — איתי בלומנטל Itay Blumental (@ItayBlumental) August 6, 2022Translated from Hebrew, the caption reads, “This is how it looks like a failed launch of the Islamic Jihad into the Gaza Strip.” At least 14 Palestinians were killed in August 2022 by Hamas-fired rockets that fell short, according to the Associated Press.
Here is reporting from Check Your Fact
CheckYourFact is a hoax site operated by The Daily Caller, created by Tucker Carlson who was fired from Fox News for being bad at propaganda. Try again.
Just watch the goddamn YouTube live video then 19:58 -20:01
The time stamped video that shows a rocket half an hour before the hospital was hit?
You’ve got the times wrong.
From The Guardian:The hospital was hit at about 7.30pm local time.
-The Camera in bottom right is facing South against the coast, looking Toward Gaza, with the town Ashkelon that sits between likely being the source of lights center frame
-Camera in upper panel appears to be facing back toward Ashdod-
19:27:36 Gaza camera cuts out, possibly for battery replacement? I think thats what the beeping sound might be.
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19:28:00 Ashdod camera catches what looks to be 5 rocket plumes appearing from Ashkelon
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19:28:43 Possible unifying event - Gaza camera sees 5 launches in upper left frame while Ashod camera shows 5 launches heading toward Gaza. I imagine these to maybe be iron dome interceptors but that’s speculation
Things to mention: There is no footage from the Gaza camera during the first launch window. There is no clear defining moment that shows the explosion and while there’s people speaking in Gaza frame I have no way to know if they are discussing that. There is a possible smoke plume and the Gaza camera pans to see it at 19:28:55. If this is indeed the hospital impact then the failed rocket is plausible.
Nothing here is conclusive but it does definitely show that there’s a need for a full release of information from Israel of their warning systems/tracking info and a need for exact timelines on when the Hospital was hit. If you can find more stuff like this I’m happy to go through it or work together to better Geo-locate some of the objects in frame to help make a more complete picture.
Regardless feel pity for the people in that hospital. They did not deserve this.
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Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=UtruJztXE5w
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I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
I’ve seen some footage from telegram channels showing the barrage. It’s shitty footage, but if it’s timestamped correctly then this was caused by a rocket falling far short of it’s intended target.
Edit: the same footage is on Reddit, and there are unconfirmed claims that Hamas was planning on launching a R160 rocket towards Haifa at the time, but there were no alerts in Haifa and no reports of rockets being intercepted.
Any chance to share it?
Lol. I’m sure Hamas would love that their rockets could kill 500 people in one go!
Suppose you have a place you’re launching rockets from. You plan on spending your evening launching sixty rockets. You don’t put each rocket at a different building so that you have to leave and pick up a rocket from Tony, then Ricky, then Bobby. You take your sixty rockets and sit them next to your launchers. Well say you fire twenty, but on the twenty first rocket it goes pop before it goes weeeee. Well then it makes the other 39 rockets go pop pop pop boom. All in exactly the same spot.
You realize some hillbillies with a truck and fertilizer blew up a massive government building in the US right?
This is a footage of the bombing and let me know if your wild theory still holds. https://youtube.com/shorts/cCSugJpGdO4
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/shorts/cCSugJpGdO4
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Hamas stores munitions inside schools and hospitals
Since people have the memory of a goldfish: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/31/why-hamas-stores-its-weapons-inside-hospitals-mosques-and-schools/
Reuters just presented both sides’ claims and said there is no confirmation of what side was actually responsible. AP basically did the exact same thing.
It seems like you read the first paragraph, came to the conclusion that Reuters sided with Hamas (they did not) and stopped reading.
Closest and cleanest video of the attack: https://twitter.com/i/status/1714366113818038412
EDIT: Which was definitely not a failed missile launch
Look at the video posted by no other than Al Jazeera (find it yourself, so you don’t say I’m providing you with fake videos). You can clearly see a rocket launched, exploding in mid-air, and the explosion at the hospital, located underneath, shortly thereafter.
The video that’s timestamped for a half hour prior to the hospital being hit?
EDIT: Which was definitely not a failed missile launch
How can you tell?
Hey so Hamas and IDF both agree that it is a bad thing to bomb hospitals - so much even that they both want the other party to be responsible. And some people believed there was no common ground between them for any kind of peace talks…
You’re a glass half full kinda guy huh?
Damn, maybe we should start bombing more hospitals, that will surely get them together!
Maybe if we all bomb each other’s hospitals, we can achieve world peace?
AP and Reuters reported that Hamas said X, and now they will report that the IDF said Y. That is what they are supposed to do when reporting news!
Honestly, I’d prefer my news sources to do more than just play “he said, she said”.
Doing that, and then pretending to have no bias, helps no one.
Also, that game of “he said, she said” is actually harmful. After all, sometimes that contrary voice that they report on is batshit crazy.
So you just want news stories to say a building exploded with no details?
No, I want them to actually dig in and figure out what really happened.
Journalism should be the pursuit of truth, not just parroting two opposing arguments.
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Murdering geonociders are liars too?! I can’t believe it!
The amount of disinformation and propaganda is wild. Stop using Telegram and WhatsApp folks. Stick to trusted unbiased verified news.
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This makes more sense than Israel doing the exact thing that will get them more enemies and less support.
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Odds are that it was a mistake on either side, and due to the IDF throwing so many missiles at Gaza the odds are that they were the ones who made the mistake. Even if it wasn’t, Israel told people to go to the south and then attacked the south.
When there is proof that Hamas intentionally targeted the hospital I will stop blaming Isreal for creating this specific situation.
Can you give me a play by play about how Israel created the current situation?
I don’t know… I wouldn’t be surprised considering they threatened one million Gaza residents to evacuate within which is unachievable. They are already trigger happy. I wouldn’t put it past them. That said I don’t trust either side.
Not exactly new:
https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/09/11/israel-depth-look-gaza-school-attacks
https://academic.oup.com/eurpub/article/31/5/927/6375348
I’m sure we can find more.
You don’t seem to familiar with the history of Israel’s actions. They have an extensive history of war criming the place up then hiding in their Circle of Protection: Anti-Semitism.
Everyone doing war shit sucks here and they all need to fuck off.
Maybe I’m being too logical.
Yes. The Israeli government’s policy regarding Palestine has historically been “QUIT HITTING YOURSELF.” Everything the Bibi Bunch say has to be processed through that, the same way everything Hamas says has to be processed through them being terrorist assholes.
It gets so fucking tiring with these assholes. Everyone I’ve met from the region has been cool as shit, and some of them are among the best people I’ve ever known. Jew, Muslim, Israeli, Palestinian, doesn’t fucking matter. A handful of assholes should not hold this much power over so many lives.
They’ve bombed hospitals before.
Israel also said there were 40 beheaded babies. They lie like Russia does about their war crimes.
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Isreal shrugs and points blame anywhere else.
A week without water or electricity and Isreal is repeadtly bombing hospitals.
This is what ethnic cleansing looks like. This is genocide.
and this is not?
Whataboutism.
Both things are bad.
Wtf? Did I say that? No. That’s a whole new sentance. And does nothing to change the fact that Israel controls all of Gazas electricity, water, transportation and is bombing their hospitals.
Stop the whataboutism. There is no excuse for what Isreal has been doing to Palestinians. There is no excuse for genocide. Stop looking for one.
Except their is no proof at this point that Israel bombed the hospital and you are taking the word of a group that literally just launched an attack killing hundreds of civilians and are holding more hostage. They have a history of using hospitals, schools, and mosques for rocket attacks.
And that group has refused any peace negotiations and said it will ignore any peace negotiations that the PA comes to with Israel. Gaza also shares a border with Egypt and at no point has even tried to form diplomatic relations with them in order to either a) get water, electricity, and necessities through that border or b) get supplies in order to supply themselves.
More than that, this group was chosen by the people after Israel, in an attempt at achieving peace, demobilized from the area entirely (and before any blockades so don’t try to blame the blockades). Had things gone the other way, there were plans to do the same in the west bank. And I mean actual plans being formed in the Knesset. But instead of taking Israel pulling out as an olive branch, they used it to create more terror. Which helped put the current war hawks into power.
Suppose you lived in San Diego and Tijuana started launching rockets in to your city. What would you expect the US government to do to protect you?
This is not genocide. Israel did not declare war against all of Palestine. They are not bombing the west bank. They are bombing the area that just launched the third largest terrorist attacks in history.
Bruh you’re that guy.
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It is in Hamas’ platform that they will not make peace with Israel. They currently have a huge amount of hostages. They will not participate in peace negotiations and have said they will reject anything that the PA negotiates. But Israel should have risen above all that.
Tell me how they make peace with a group that states the only thing they will accept is every Israeli packing up and leaving?
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A 7.62 copper-jacket ball through the neo-cortex can change Hamas terrorist minds rapidly. Fuck Hamas.
Please, by all means.
All I ask is that they try aiming AT hamas and not like imperial storm troopers. We have better aim then this surely?
No that’s Zionism.
Footage of the bombing. I’m not a military expert but it certainty not sounds like a rocket. https://youtube.com/shorts/cCSugJpGdO4
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/shorts/cCSugJpGdO4
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
You have other comments where you posted multiple contradictory videos. Just picking one to avoid that obvious discrepancy doesn’t make this effort more believable.
I’m just sharing the videos as I find them. Feel free to make your own assessment of them.
