Yes, it is 100% in HAMAS’ best strategic interest to keep as many innocent civilians in place as possible. This makes it the IDF’s responsibility to find an effective counter to this strategy, that preserves the lives of as many human shields as possible.
If the IDF fails to find an effective counter-strategy to the HAMAS strategy, they will eventually lose this war.
Killing all the human shields that are in the way is not an acceptable counter-strategy, and will cost Israel its allies while further angering its many foes.
I think you’re right that Hamas benefits from having civilians around. They’re extremist assholes who do not benefit from peace or stability. A peaceful Palestine is one where Hamas loses its purpose.
But to be honest, I haven’t seen much concern from the IDF for preventing civilian casualties. Compared with civilian deaths in the dense cities of Ukraine or any other recent conflict, the utter disregard for innocent life is staggering. And the rhetoric coming out of Israel from both military and politicians — including calling Palestinians vermin and animals, claiming unarmed children are valid targets, threatening to nuke them, eradicate them completely or expel them — does not inspire confidence in their best efforts or good intentions.
Moreover, it is also 100% in the IDF’s best strategic interest to claim that civilian deaths are unavoidable. I also suspect there are some hot heads who actively want to kill civilians as vengeance or a terror tactic, to make Palestinians lose hope.
Yes, I am in full agreement. Though I will say I think that Israel has a “quiet majority” right now that has been severely shocked into, basically, just seeing red. As an American, I have felt this before. It becomes almost impossible to heartfully criticize the extremists when you have that feeling of pain inside of you, I have tremendous admiration for those that can. It dissipates, but it takes time.
It basically gives the extremists license to drive the bus for awhile though.
I can only hope the Israeli people come to their senses before its too late. I personally am not in any kind of position to shame them though, because I know exactly how they feel.
I think 9/11 is a great analogy. The lesson I draw from that period, however, is that we cannot let bloodlust win. Hundreds of thousands dead, $8 trillion spent, for nothing.
That America overreacted to 9/11 and compounded the scale of the tragedy is now a standard position among progressives, and even some conservatives; these days it takes little courage to denounce “the forever wars” and to condemn the shortsightedness of liberal intellectuals who aligned themselves with George W. Bush and his neoconservative advisers to champion the invasion of Iraq. But at the time, it was far more common for conscientious progressives to equivocate and prevaricate. To foreground the suffering of the Americans in the Twin Towers was obligatory; to acknowledge the past, present, or future victims of American violence abroad was at best awkward; to imply these things might be related was something almost no one wanted to hear when it might have made any difference.
Now is not the time to abandon nuance, but neither is it the time to be too “understanding” of Israel’s bloodlust, because their overwhelming advantage in power and resources over Palestinians means an alarming potential for abuse.
Well said. Our political approach to trying to help can potentially be counter-productive, though.
While this is as political as a problem can get, the root is emotional trauma. Damage to the millions of individual physical bodies. Perhaps a better approach, instead of coming at it more as citizens, perhaps more as doctors?
Human shields is the same propaganda they used in Vietnam, Korea, and Iraq. If you want me to believe this human shields rhetoric, show me proof or I’ll chalk it up to another excuse for a free fire zone.
… using human shields during conflict isn’t propaganda. It’s a very effective strategy for asymmetrical warfare.
It’s every time a combatant is fighting out of uniform, around other people that are not soldiers and wearing the same kind of stuff he is, that’s that fighter using those other people as human shields, to make it more difficult to single him out and attack him. Particularly with high explosives.
Super common strategy, goes back a long time. Very effective. Preventing it is one of the reasons we make our soldiers wear uniforms, and protecting civilian lives is why we made it illegal at the international level. Otherwise everyone would do it sometimes when they’re locally outnumbered, it’s just strategically beneficial. And more civilians would die because of that.
If you’re gonna kill someone who isn’t attacking you and isn’t wearing a uniform, you better have a good reason for that. Unless you like being associated with Genghis Khan. I know some people do.
Do you think it’s not used as justification to indiscriminately fire upon residential or refuges areas? Can you really tell me with a straight face that the US wiped out 1/5 of Korea in the 60s because they were all collateral damage/human shields? Can you also tell me with a straight face that its more likely that Hamas is keeping 1 million people locked inside Northern Gaza, or is it more likely that Gazans realize that if they leave they can never come back. And even if they DO leave, have fun because the Israelis bomb evacuation routes marked as “safe”.
I see no problems with the accurate, truthful answer simply being d) all of the above.
Also, don’t forget, we’re supposed to learn from previous generations mistakes, not just carry them into the future. I try to remind people that the main reason we know indiscriminate civilian bombing is not effective, and thus don’t even want to do it anymore, is because we have a lot of data from previous generations making that mistake, and proving it doesn’t work. We can look back on that knowledge, earned through blood, and choose something smarter.
Again I’m going to need evidence that they are keeping 1 million people hostage from someone other than the people who have killed over 10000 civilians in a month
You’re never gonna get evidence from the Pro-Israel crowd. I’ve been asking for months and the best I got was a document that said that “the IDF reports that it found ammo in a civilian house”. That was one of the 11 “examples” of Hamas using human shields.
But you know what there is evidence of? The UN has evidence that the Israelis used Palestinians as human shields. Check out section XIV of the Goldstone Report (scroll to “Report of the United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict” and download the document)
Killing all the human shields that are in the way is not an acceptable counter-strategy, and will cost Israel its allies while further angering its many foes.
It’s been working great so far. Relationships with allies flourishing as usual; we’re all sating our bloodlust vicariously.
That’s not what I’m seeing. Most world leaders are expending political capital supporting Israel, and losing young, progressive, and middle eastern voters in the process. I think this scorched earth strategy is stupid even from the perspective of Israel’s self interest.
Yes, it is 100% in HAMAS’ best strategic interest to keep as many innocent civilians in place as possible. This makes it the IDF’s responsibility to find an effective counter to this strategy, that preserves the lives of as many human shields as possible.
If the IDF fails to find an effective counter-strategy to the HAMAS strategy, they will eventually lose this war.
Killing all the human shields that are in the way is not an acceptable counter-strategy, and will cost Israel its allies while further angering its many foes.
I think you’re right that Hamas benefits from having civilians around. They’re extremist assholes who do not benefit from peace or stability. A peaceful Palestine is one where Hamas loses its purpose.
But to be honest, I haven’t seen much concern from the IDF for preventing civilian casualties. Compared with civilian deaths in the dense cities of Ukraine or any other recent conflict, the utter disregard for innocent life is staggering. And the rhetoric coming out of Israel from both military and politicians — including calling Palestinians vermin and animals, claiming unarmed children are valid targets, threatening to nuke them, eradicate them completely or expel them — does not inspire confidence in their best efforts or good intentions.
Moreover, it is also 100% in the IDF’s best strategic interest to claim that civilian deaths are unavoidable. I also suspect there are some hot heads who actively want to kill civilians as vengeance or a terror tactic, to make Palestinians lose hope.
Yes, I am in full agreement. Though I will say I think that Israel has a “quiet majority” right now that has been severely shocked into, basically, just seeing red. As an American, I have felt this before. It becomes almost impossible to heartfully criticize the extremists when you have that feeling of pain inside of you, I have tremendous admiration for those that can. It dissipates, but it takes time.
It basically gives the extremists license to drive the bus for awhile though.
I can only hope the Israeli people come to their senses before its too late. I personally am not in any kind of position to shame them though, because I know exactly how they feel.
I think 9/11 is a great analogy. The lesson I draw from that period, however, is that we cannot let bloodlust win. Hundreds of thousands dead, $8 trillion spent, for nothing.
The editor of the Jewish Current makes the same analogy in his article Have We Learned Nothing?
Now is not the time to abandon nuance, but neither is it the time to be too “understanding” of Israel’s bloodlust, because their overwhelming advantage in power and resources over Palestinians means an alarming potential for abuse.
Well said. Our political approach to trying to help can potentially be counter-productive, though.
While this is as political as a problem can get, the root is emotional trauma. Damage to the millions of individual physical bodies. Perhaps a better approach, instead of coming at it more as citizens, perhaps more as doctors?
Do I have to go to med school first…?
Human shields is the same propaganda they used in Vietnam, Korea, and Iraq. If you want me to believe this human shields rhetoric, show me proof or I’ll chalk it up to another excuse for a free fire zone.
… using human shields during conflict isn’t propaganda. It’s a very effective strategy for asymmetrical warfare.
It’s every time a combatant is fighting out of uniform, around other people that are not soldiers and wearing the same kind of stuff he is, that’s that fighter using those other people as human shields, to make it more difficult to single him out and attack him. Particularly with high explosives.
Super common strategy, goes back a long time. Very effective. Preventing it is one of the reasons we make our soldiers wear uniforms, and protecting civilian lives is why we made it illegal at the international level. Otherwise everyone would do it sometimes when they’re locally outnumbered, it’s just strategically beneficial. And more civilians would die because of that.
If you’re gonna kill someone who isn’t attacking you and isn’t wearing a uniform, you better have a good reason for that. Unless you like being associated with Genghis Khan. I know some people do.
Does it happen, absolutely.
Do you think it’s not used as justification to indiscriminately fire upon residential or refuges areas? Can you really tell me with a straight face that the US wiped out 1/5 of Korea in the 60s because they were all collateral damage/human shields? Can you also tell me with a straight face that its more likely that Hamas is keeping 1 million people locked inside Northern Gaza, or is it more likely that Gazans realize that if they leave they can never come back. And even if they DO leave, have fun because the Israelis bomb evacuation routes marked as “safe”.
I see no problems with the accurate, truthful answer simply being d) all of the above.
Also, don’t forget, we’re supposed to learn from previous generations mistakes, not just carry them into the future. I try to remind people that the main reason we know indiscriminate civilian bombing is not effective, and thus don’t even want to do it anymore, is because we have a lot of data from previous generations making that mistake, and proving it doesn’t work. We can look back on that knowledge, earned through blood, and choose something smarter.
Again I’m going to need evidence that they are keeping 1 million people hostage from someone other than the people who have killed over 10000 civilians in a month
You’re never gonna get evidence from the Pro-Israel crowd. I’ve been asking for months and the best I got was a document that said that “the IDF reports that it found ammo in a civilian house”. That was one of the 11 “examples” of Hamas using human shields.
But you know what there is evidence of? The UN has evidence that the Israelis used Palestinians as human shields. Check out section XIV of the Goldstone Report (scroll to “Report of the United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict” and download the document)
It’s been working great so far. Relationships with allies flourishing as usual; we’re all sating our bloodlust vicariously.
That’s not what I’m seeing. Most world leaders are expending political capital supporting Israel, and losing young, progressive, and middle eastern voters in the process. I think this scorched earth strategy is stupid even from the perspective of Israel’s self interest.
I suppose I’m just too cynical. It does make me happy to see the BS zionist propaganda failing though