Morally speaking it’s no different than what the west has been doing. This is the world we live in, only way to avoid such conflicts is to respect boundaries.

Which Russia did , obviously. And still wrongdoings of the west still do not justify anything of this.

They were perfectly fine with Ukraine doing its own things until the coup there.

That is way to simplistic. Russia is of course fine when a Russian friendly government is in power in the ukraine and is not fine, when an Europe friendly government is in power. That is pretty obvious from the last 30 years. Russia was not able to just let the Ukraine do it’s thing.

If NATO did not continue to expand and encircle Russia since the 90s then there would’ve been no war.

Once upon a time there even was the possibility of Russia joining NATO, if we take Putin’s words from 20 years ago seriously. And all of the Eastern Europe countries wanted desperately into the NATO because if pervious experience with Russia / the Soviet union, despite skepticism of the USA. History is a little more nuanced than “the west / NATOs big goal is simply to encircle and destroy Russia”

This is not a conspiracy theory it’s a documented fact. You continue to show disturbing amount of ignorance regarding the topic you’re attempting to debate. Here’s a research paper you should read to educate yourself https://www.researchgate.net/publication/299383810_The_Separatist_War_in_Donbas_A_Violent_Break-up_of_Ukraine

Oh you showed me that resource already. I don’t find the word “coup” in there. Could you please cite the part where you believe that this proves your theory.

And just because this is a scientific paper doesn’t make it a definite fact. It’s history after all, not rocket science. Keep a little skepticism.

But still you are cherry picking western resources. Even the new Atlas is arguing very one sided.

Propaganda is ignoring decades of history and pretending that Russia just decided to attack Ukraine out of the blue because they’re evil orcs who can’t be reasoned with.

Never ever have I pretended that. There are favorable geopolitical and historical reasons for Russia to start the war against the Ukraine, no doubt. But morally speaking there is still no justification of the war.

The rebel groups in the east started fighting back against ethnic cleansing by the regime the west installed via a coup in 2014.

Alright now we are in conspiracy theory territory. Let’s stop here. You are not making it better for yourself proving your image wrong of arguing one sided in perfect alignment with the Russian narrative.

Russia is methodically grinding down Ukrainian military and eventually it will break. At that point Russia will install a friendly government there. That is the most likely outcome of this situation.

This is wishful thinking. This war will grind to a halt some time in the future, like so many other wars do as well. There is no clear “winner”

The only thing the regime in Ukraine is defending is American interest in weakening Russia and Europe.

What about all the lives of the Ukrainian civilization? What about the right to be a sovereign state. Do you really think Ukraine is just fighting because the US said so? How stupid.

The fact that Ukraine fought a civil war for eight years against the Russian speaking population in the east

The framing … it sounds like Ukraine was starting the fight. AFAIK it was the rebel groups in the east who started the civil war. At the very least both were fighting and both sides were violating the Minsk agreements / the ceasefire.

You keep repeating and cherry picking details supporting the Russian narrative. Please for once take other perspectives into consideration. Your current comments just sound like well educated and good formulated propaganda.

It can complain all it likes, but the fact is that Europe chose to start an economic war with Russia and it is losing this war.

Europe responded with sanctions because of Russias war. Economic wise both sides are losing. The intertwined economy between Russia and the EU is breaking up hard.

If I punch your friend in the face and you choose to stab yourself in the gut that’s a response. It’s just not a smart response.

The EU did not stab itself. You fail to see that the current economic difficulties in the EU do come from the fact that they try to be dependent of Russia energy deliveries (besides the fact that the delivery stopped mostly). Geopolitically if the EU is smart in future investments it will be more resilient and self-sufficient regarding energy resources. But this is not solved by buying gas from the US and Saudi Arabia.

The reason the economy is suffering so hard is the pace of the break-up. Generally the direction of being less reliant on gas is a good decision.

Ukraine should stop fighting because the longer the war goes on the more of their country becomes destroyed, and eventually there may not be an Ukraine left.

Stop fighting will definitely result into no Ukraine being left. I don’t think this is a viable alternative.

Ukraine cannot win this war.

Well the future is not looking bright for Ukraine but I’ll hope there will be peace sooner than later. It’ll probably end up in a frozen war. But you can not expect the Ukraine to not defend it’s county just because the chance are higher that it looses. Still no justification of the Russian aggression.

Now, Ukraine has lost four regions, and will keep losing territory.

Let’s see. Current events suggests otherwise. But no one knows for sure.

Russia started the war on Ukraine and was surprised that Ukraine (and it’s allies) retaliated. Why would the Ukraine stop fighting Russia if Russia is obviously invading the Ukraine?

Russia tried to find diplomatic solutions for eight years while both the west and their puppet regime in Ukraine refused.

Not only Russia tried that. The USA, France Germany and most importantly Ukraine tried it as well. No one wanted that war to start (well Russia apparently eventually chose to do so anyway)

Furthermore, the war is directly modelled on what NATO did in Yugoslavia

"directly? I’m pretty sure that this is not true even though those things do look familiar on the surface. This is definitely an argument Russia is using why they started the war. But one wrong doing of NATO does not in any way justify a wrongdoing of Russia.

Europe can no longer complain that Russia is retaliating against Europe economically.

But it can, the same as Russia can complain that NATO members are supporting Ukraine.

This is a fight Europe chose and these are the consequences.

True. But this fight was chosen in response to Russias agression. Diplomatic solutions before the war failed because of Russias maximalist claims.

But what should this context tell us? At the very least this is in no way any justification for russia starting a war against the whole Ukraine.

Thank you. It’s frightening how many propaganda led conspiracy theories are thrown around here without for once taking other perspectives into consideration.

Oh it does. And also it does matter because Russia started the war. The sanctions where the response.

So Russia was the face puncher while Europe the ball kicker to stay in your analogy.

But this is where we disagree. The EU sanctioned Russia which did exclude things like gas.

It is very much Russias fault that those prices are going up now as it stopped the delivery of gas.

But that is not to say that the EU could’ve known better.

This meme is pretty inaccurate IMO.

First I think most Russians who are speaking like this would like to (and probably are) stay(ing) in Russia.

Second the EU is blocking most russians to enter it. Which is bad, as those who flee Russia mostly are not in favor of the Russian government. And I worry that closing the borders for Russians just strengthens the anti-russian sentiment in EU countries, while Russians (the people, not the government) are not fault of the current situation.

Great. Finally a sane, almost friendly answer of yours. Very rare occasion.

Russia was perfectly fine trading with the west while fighting a war in Ukraine.

Yes of course, why wouldn’t Russia be fine? But you also have to acknowledge that Russia prepared for that economic war well before the current conflict. And even though EU might have started the economic war, Russia started the decrease of delivery of gas to pressure the EU.

But of course it is mostly the EUs fault to so heavily rely on Russia gas in the first place. In hindsight the signals of the geopolitical shift Russia took where clear even before 2014 but the EU ignored them.

Okay. Let’s test that. Who started the war?

What lie are you talking about?

Are you speaking of yourself?

Factually no.

Okay?

No.