Is anyone childfree?
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I try to be. Children would be exhausting to parent in the current era. Humanity’s future is gloom too.

@sproid@lemmy.ml
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147 hilabete

Humanity’s future is gloom too.

Hasn’t been the message for the last 2000 years?

The current era is better to raise children than many other eras where human rights didn’t existed. Although it depends on which society too. Many of those worries are very subjective. Having or not having children ultimately is a personal choice* (except when is not e.g. Rape) and neither is wrong. Whichever you chose you will miss the benefits of the other. Both have pros and cons.

@sexy_peach@feddit.de
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47 hilabete

yeah this is what I agree with.

Torrid
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97 hilabete

No plans to create my own children. I’ve always felt that it’s far more important to adopt a child that’s been abandoned by an uncaring society then to make another. I don’t have any genes important enough to try to reproduce (and few people do). If you can’t find it in your heart to love a child that doesn’t contain the same genetic material as you, I think you should reconsider being a parent

@DPUGT2@lemmy.ml
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-127 hilabete

Haha. “Adoption”. There haven’t been any recent world wars. No plagues (close miss on that though). There are no children to adopt. So few, in fact, that those who want to adopt often find themselves on waiting lists…

So much so, that many give up on that course of action, and instead choose to fly halfway around the world to buy children from warlords and conmen in Africa.

Or, you could become a “foster parent”, which is like adoption except that the kid’s even less yours… they might come along and yank them away from you for a variety of reasons. The most heartbreaking of which, I’m told, is that the real parents have convinced some bureaucrat that they won’t abuse or neglect them like they had been doing, when experience suggests that it will just happen again.

Though, don’t be too sympathetic to the foster parents, they’re helping the government prosecute the war on drugs and ruin families, just by supplying the demand for child abduction technicians. And all so they can scratch their itch of (fake) parenthood and feel self-righteous about it.

@sexy_peach@feddit.de
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97 hilabete

Also if you want to adopt you need a very square life where I live. You need proper jobs, a lot of money to show them, be married etc. Not saying this is bad, it’s probably best for the adopted children, but I don’t have many of these things.

@DPUGT2@lemmy.ml
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-97 hilabete

Nah, for $50,000 you can buy an African child. Takes about a year or so. It’s not human trafficking because it’s good and wholesome.

Nah, for $50,000 you can buy an African child. Takes about a year or so. It’s not human trafficking because it’s good and wholesome.

I did not know human trafficking is wholesome. You are scoring some big wins in this thread, DPUGT2, especially as a married male with 2 kids.

@H4rdStyl3z@lemmy.ml
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07 hilabete

I get what he’s trying to say here; he’s being ironic about it, as some people gullibly adopt from immoral sources such as african warlords. It is child trafficking but, since it is being “whitewashed” and not labeled as such, it becomes somehow acceptable in the public eye.

He is not being sarcastic, as you already seem to have experienced. He said in one comment now removed:

My daughter (12) sometimes asks how many children she could realistically have… a good sign that she hasn’t been tainted by whatever mental illness it is that the “childfree” people have.

He claims to have a wife and 2 kids, and preach all this load of right wing purist nutjob levels of crap to people.

@H4rdStyl3z@lemmy.ml
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17 hilabete

Yeah, I’ve read that comment. I don’t agree with what he said in general but it’s undeniable that there are plenty of scams to lure rich people, typically americans, to poor countries under the guise of adopting children from underfunded orphanages when in fact there are far grimmer ulterior motives behind them.

It is a whole different discussion though, which starts with the agreed point that human trafficking should result in harsh punishment instead of it being acceptable under X or Y marketing labels.

@DPUGT2@lemmy.ml
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07 hilabete

There are no moral sources. Those who would adopt morally would be compelled to adopt children from their own family first… who better to not let an orphan forget their parents than someone who also loved and knew those parents?

And if there were no family, then friends of those parents for the same reason.

And if no friends, then that community… except today, there aren’t really any communities left. Just people who live near each other as accidents of geography.

And if none in the community, then at least someone from that culture. So that the child might grow up knowing his or her own language and songs and whatnot. But western culture isn’t a culture so much as the absence of one, a void, and so it can’t imagine that anything like that’s important.

But none of these rules allow hipsters who live in California but are too eco-conscious of their carbon footprint to want to “bring another child into this world” but want to raise a child to do so. So these rules are bad. And that’s why adopting African children is good and moral. Because they want to, they have the money to do it, and that warlord uses a cutout so that the adoption has the appearance of being above-board.

@H4rdStyl3z@lemmy.ml
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07 hilabete

Those who would adopt morally would be compelled to adopt children from their own family first… who better to not let an orphan forget their parents than someone who also loved and knew those parents?

And if there were no family, then friends of those parents for the same reason.

I… agree with you? You’re making a strawman out of me in this argument. I never said I advocated for adopting from Africa before adopting from your own family or circle of friends. Heck, if I do decide to adopt in the future, that’s the route I’d try to take first. Not that it’s a big desire of mine, but that’s what I’d choose to do.

@DPUGT2@lemmy.ml
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07 hilabete

You’re making a strawman out of me in this argument.

We’re on a public forum. Though my comment may be the literal reply to yours, it isn’t necessarily true that I am speaking to you and only you. I’m speaking to others in response to what you’ve said.

I apologize if this makes it seem I’m hostile to you.

But I’ll drop another rule on you and see what you make of this. Adoptions are about the children who need someone to care for them, and not for the people adopting who want to gratify their need for a human pet. If you’re doing it for yourself, you’re doing it for the wrong reasons. Therefor, the only people who should adopt are those who do not want to, but out of a sense of duty.

And if people accepted that rule, then we’d have no discussion at all about adoption in this thread. Because adoption can no longer be a substitute for having one’s own children.

@H4rdStyl3z@lemmy.ml
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07 hilabete

We’re on a public forum. Though my comment may be the literal reply to yours, it isn’t necessarily true that I am speaking to you and only you. I’m speaking to others in response to what you’ve said.

Ah, ok, thanks for the clarification. I misunderstood your argument.

But I’ll drop another rule on you and see what you make of this. Adoptions are about the children who need someone to care for them, and not for the people adopting who want to gratify their need for a human pet. If you’re doing it for yourself, you’re doing it for the wrong reasons. Therefor, the only people who should adopt are those who do not want to, but out of a sense of duty.

And if people accepted that rule, then we’d have no discussion at all about adoption in this thread. Because adoption can no longer be a substitute for having one’s own children.

I somewhat agree, in the sense that, from a moral perspective, if you’re adopting just to satisfy a desire, without any good intention to help the child being adopted, you’re just as evil as if you’ve had a biological child for that same reason. That might be where you disagree with me though.

I don’t think people in this thread are advocating for adoption from a strictly selfish point of view, they are merely acknowledging that, in the face of wanting a child to take care of, adopting a child who was neglected seems like a more morally sound choice than having a biological child, in those circumstances.

Torrid
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27 hilabete

Absolutely. Quite honestly, adopting from another country had never crossed my mind, since I grew up with so many orphans. I was surprised that some people immediately jumped to that conclusion

@DPUGT2@lemmy.ml
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-17 hilabete

I did not know human trafficking is wholesome.

It can be. You just have to label it correctly. Call it “international adoption” and the money “adoption fees”, and it’s all good.

@TheAnonymouseJoker@lemmy.ml
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7 hilabete

I did not know human trafficking is wholesome.

It can be. You just have to label it correctly. Call it “international adoption” and the money “adoption fees”, and it’s all good.

…WTF? Labelling something in a sugarcoating manner does not justify it.

Nazis call atrocities like Holocaust a form of justice, DOES NOT mean it will ever be acceptable.

@meloo@lemmy.perthchat.org
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3 hilabete

deleted by creator

Torrid
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67 hilabete

Your pessimism and ignorance is truly astounding. There need not be wars for children to be abandoned, and it should be common knowledge at this point that foster parents have a high chance of being nothing but another loveless cage for orphans to suffer in. Full fledged adoption is hardly done right, but that’s all the more reason why good and caring people should step in and try.

I grew up around orphans, and I know how hard and lonely it is to be foisted from foster family to foster family, surrounded by siblings and adults who resent and use you until you’re once again abandoned to some other equally cruel house. Maybe you don’t think adoption does any good (god knows why), but I know for certain that there are a lot of children who grow up alone without any support that would be so much better off if they had someone in their life who truly cared for them. Is it really better to just not care at all than to try and help even one person? If you think so, you’re a terribly sad person.

“I try to be.” Uhm is there a middle ground here between do or do not? It seems like rather a binary choice lol. Anyway ya, life is shit and this is hell, no way am I bringing more sapient life to this shithole.

Amicese
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67 hilabete

It seems like rather a binary choice lol.

Well there is adoption or babysitting; but I’m trying to stay committed to my decision to be childfree.

I’ve raised four kids but reared none of my own. Of the four step kids, three girls and one boy, only one of the girls has hatched their own. The other three have zero interest in having kids…unless you count cats.

☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
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87 hilabete

Never had any interest in having children, and the more I’ve learned about the state of the world the happier I am with my choices.

Amicese
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67 hilabete

Same.

@guojing@lemmy.ml
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7 hilabete

I am not, got a 10 month old boy. Its a lot of work, but definitely worth everything. Its incredible how happy he is all the time.

@pingveno@lemmy.ml
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47 hilabete

I would have liked to, but my husband was a hard no. We’re gay and the risks and difficulty involved with adoption are pretty high. He just didn’t feel like either of us were up for that, and honestly it may be true. If he’s a no and I’m a soft yes, the default goes to no. It looks like my brother is headed the same direction.

Still, I always will feel a little sad that I won’t be able to raise a kid or two. In terms of a stable marriage with decent income, we could offer that. I think I could be a decent parent, so it makes me a little sad that I will have little legacy to pass down to the next generation.

@Gaywallet@beehaw.org
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77 hilabete

I have zero desire to continue my bloodline. I’m okay with adoption, but not particularly interested right now.

I don’t have kids nor do I want kids, but I try not to judge others, particularly people who aren’t super privileged, for having kids.

Privileged (rich) people who have kids though? They kinda irk me because it’s so obvious that they know the world is fucked but they clearly have the money and privilege to keep their kids in a little bubble.

Mad
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67 hilabete

i don’t want to have kids because i believe it’s unethical for some average joe, or in fact anyone that isn’t an expert in child psychology and child development, to subject a human being to potential lifelong trauma because “babies be cute doe”. also i think the hype is overblown. society feeds you the lie that you need to have kids to feel fulfilled and happy, but in reality there are many other ways to do that and they don’t involve a very high risk of ruining someone’s entire life. surround yourself with people you like, create a daily lifestyle that energizes and refreshes you, and spend time on your passions. one or all three of those things could involve children, but for most people they will not.

i think refraining from raising children because “humanity’s future is gloom” isn’t entirely logical. even absolute climate catastrophe would be better than most of human history because of the technology available to us, and at worst it would be just as bad. humans have been born and lived in the worst possible conditions, they can do it in these ones too. definitely adopt though, creating children is still dumb for other reasons.

@DPUGT2@lemmy.ml
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-37 hilabete

i don’t want to have kids because i believe it’s unethical for some average joe, or in fact anyone that isn’t an expert in child psychology and child development, to subject a human being to potential lifelong trauma

Only PhDs in child psychology should reproduce? So, you want humanity to be extinct, that’s a more ethically sound position than “sometimes bad things happen to some people”?

society feeds you the lie that you need to have kids to feel fulfilled and happy,

You’ve got 4 billion years of genetic coding that insists, even demands that this is true. The last few tens of millions of years hardcodes it directly into your meat brain.

Society? If society ever did that, it ceased doing it almost a hundred years ago. Now, you can’t turn your head or hear a dozen words from some random stranger proclaiming the opposite is true and that anyone who says otherwise is a misogynist, masochist, or biblethumper.

There of course are many reasons for that. If you believe transexuals are healthy, important individuals… how could they participate in parenting if they’re mutilating their reproductive organs? So, parenting and reproduction now have to be bad or at least discouraged, to push the other message more fully. Not just them, of course, it’s not fair to single them out when there are so many other degenerate lifestyles that, if you embrace them, you also can’t embrace the idea that parenting is important without being hypocritical.

The end result will be, of course, that these lifestyles die out. The question is, will they take everything else with them.

@H4rdStyl3z@lemmy.ml
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7 hilabete

So, you want humanity to be extinct, that’s a more ethically sound position than “sometimes bad things happen to some people”?

Yes. Suffering should be eradicated at all costs. Humanity doesn’t have an inherent right to exist, it simply does as long as it is perpetuated by both humans themselves and while external conditions allow it.

degenerate lifestyles

I see your beliefs now. Well, no wonder you also disagree with this viewpoint then.

@DPUGT2@lemmy.ml
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07 hilabete

Suffering should be eradicated at all costs

What is suffering? I’ve lumped that word in with all the other religious claptrap like “soul” and “afterlife” and whatnot.

Are you talking about pain (the sensation)? It doesn’t seem that you mean that, but if you did it would be absurd. “Pain should be eradicated” makes no sense. It can’t even be said that pain should be avoided, since discomfort is often associated with worthwhile, and ultimately pleasant, activities.

Define suffering so we can be on the same page.

Humanity doesn’t have an inherent right to exist,

True, as far as it goes. But it’s like “turnips have no inherent right to exist”. Pretty meaningless, and in the context where people actually want to exist (and for others to exist), somewhat misleading.

I see your beliefs now.

Please, read my palm. Tell everyone what my beliefs are.

@H4rdStyl3z@lemmy.ml
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7 hilabete

Are you talking about pain (the sensation)?

That is merely a component of suffering. That should be avoided imo, but it isn’t the only thing that should.

It can’t even be said that pain should be avoided, since discomfort is often associated with worthwhile, and ultimately pleasant, activities.

I struggle to find such activities. I’m not stating there are none, just that I can’t remember any off the top of my head.

Define suffering so we can be on the same page.

A negative experience which causes physical or psychological distress to a person or group of people, often for extended periods of time or with lasting effects after the experience itself has stopped (ie. trauma).

Pretty meaningless, and in the context where people actually want to exist (and for others to exist), somewhat misleading.

Saying this statement is meaningless is the same as saying philosophy itself is meaningless, but it can be a valuable tool to help us define our values and offer a base from which every other aspect of life can be evaluated more precisely. I don’t see how it’s misleading at all.

Please, read my palm. Tell everyone what my beliefs are.

That statement was more hostile than I intended it to, in hindsight, and I see how it might be hypocritical to complain that you are lumping all “young liberals” (as it seems) in the same strawman when I ended up doing the same to you. I was quite offended by the transphobic comment so I reacted in an emotional way. Sorry.

I believe you follow some conservative beliefs (from an american standpoint) pretty strictly and that might be the bias shown in your arguments towards traditional values and against modern, sort of more “extreme” or what you perceive as catering to emotions rather than rationality (which I think they really aren’t, but even if they were, emotions are a part of life, if you value life, surely you’d value emotions too?). My critique to that is that conservatives often fail to see that their own positions and points of view are similarly coming from an emotional, and not rational, place, as they react to change by clinging to traditional views “because that’s what has been done until now”, without any actual rational reasoning for them. Like you yourself said, just because a lot of people follow a given ideology doesn’t make it right, the majority might be wrong, it’s just the majority. The same could be applied in this situation.

For instance, you might see having children as the rational choice because that’s what humanity has done since it began existing and due to it being a necessity for the continuation of the species, but is that not your natural, biological impulses speaking for you? Is it truly rational, logical thought? Why does humanity have to keep existing? You might have arguments and answers to those questions and that would make them rationally valid, but “just because” is not a rational answer.

Mad
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07 hilabete

Only PhDs in child psychology should reproduce?

Only those with some qualification in child psychology should raise children.

“sometimes bad things happen to some people”

most times small things happen to most children that have a huge psychological impact on them. these things can be avoided by child psychology experts because they actually know what they’re doing.

You’ve got 4 billion years of genetic coding that insists, even demands that this is true.

There are primal instincts that push us towards wanting children, but pleasing the more complex parts of your brain is much more fulfilling, enough that you don’t need to appease those primal instincts. I’m not arguing that having children wouldn’t provide some happiness at certain points for everyone, just that there are other things that will make you much more happy and don’t risk the lifelong wellbeing of another human being. and again, for some people the more complex part of their brain will want children, because of genuine interest in the process of raising a child, not because of a temporary high that will fade as soon as they need to pay attention to their actions around the child or make tough decisions about discipline.

Society? If society ever did that, it ceased doing it almost a hundred years ago.

That’s great to hear, my observations must be anomalous then.

@ezmack@lemmy.ml
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67 hilabete

Just had my first want 2 or 3

@freakrho@lemmy.ml
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57 hilabete

I personally don’t want to, I’m not good with children

@sexy_peach@feddit.de
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47 hilabete

I don’t have any but want 2 I think. A few years ago I didn’t want any but I guess I got older

@KhepriGold@lemmy.ml
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127 hilabete

I’d recommend considering adopting, if you don’t mind me saying so. More paperwork sure, but way less pain for you or your partner, and they’re really usually perfectly good kids. My neice, nephew, and cousin are all adopted, and they’re no less a part of the family than anyone else.

It makes a world of difference to a child that already exists, and you spare the unborn the existential crises our world is facing- huge win-win.

@DPUGT2@lemmy.ml
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17 hilabete

Two’s a good number. Not sure I’d say it out loud, it’s like daring fate to give you triplets.

down daemon
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37 hilabete

as far as i know

@stopit@lemmy.ml
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27 hilabete

Do cats count? Otherwise, I’m childless.

Projjal
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27 hilabete

I am not currently, but wish to be that in my future.

QuentinCallaghan
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7 hilabete

Yes. I’d rather be the “eccentric uncle QuentinCallaghan” to my siblings’ kids than a father to any kid in a world like this. I’m so used to having my own independence and freedom, and I’m a hedonist to some extent. Also having kids would require a relationship, and the Yellowstone volcano erupting is more likely than that.

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