What is your opinion on sex work?
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My opinion is that sex work should be legal. It would enable involuntary virgins to get a good sex experience for payment; they will be guaranteed a good sex experience with a sex worker: no harassment, good education, and a fun time.

Sex work gets shamed by people puritans because of payment for sex and it’s “sinful”; yet these same persons puritans get and have sex for free out of “passion” or marriage; they also discriminate against minorities in sec.

EDIT: Apparently there is an implied difference between sex work and prostitution. I mean sex work.

EDIT 2: I messed up the writing of my post. My real opinion is located in this comment:

Oof. I didn’t realize there was way more exploitation than just sex traffickers. It totally makes sense though; sex trades are a product of capitalist exploitation and the existence of private property. (Naturally under communism, the prevalence of sex trades would be heavily reduced.)

It seems like I couldn’t communicate my ideas properly beforehand. I don’t want people in the sex trade to be criminalized; I want pimps and johns to be criminalized.

Only a few hours ago: I wanted to support a sex trade industry that didn’t involve rapes or rely on economic coercion. I just wanted disabled people, who keep getting discriminated out of sex,[1][2][3] to be able to feel better about their lives; a lack of sex can cause mental health issues in some people (even though this shouldn’t happen). (However, having sex probably won’t fix the issue, it will just hide the problems until later). Now I feel like shit…


  1. Sexual Ableism ↩︎

  2. Dating With Disability: How to Rise Above Sexual Ableism ↩︎

  3. Dating with Disability: Choose Your Dreams Over Sexual Ableism ↩︎

@pH3ra@lemmy.ml
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Countries where sex work is legal and regulated (Holland, Germany, Canada, Australia…) all registered sensible drops in human traffic, venereal disease spreading and rapes.</br> People sell their bodies for food or money since the dawn of time and always will, like it or not. Keeping it illegal only favors criminal organizations and fodders a culture in which people are not allowed to do what they want with their own body, whether it is selling it, changing it or whatever. </br> Edit: added links to studies made by people smarter than me.

loathesome dongeater
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A long time ago someone shared a study with me that claimed that legalization of sex work leads to increase in trafficking. Sadly my reddit account is gone so I can’t find it anymore.

edit: thank you google scholar

Study: The challenges of fighting sex trafficking in the legalized prostitution market of the Netherlands

The main conclusion is that the screening of brothel owners and the monitoring of the compliance of licensing conditions do not create levels of transparency that enable sex trafficking to be exposed. The prostitution business retains many characteristics of an illegitimate market and the legalization and regulation of the prostitution sector has not driven out organized crime. On the contrary, fighting sex trafficking using the criminal justice system may even be harder in the legalized prostitution sector.

Study: Does Legalized Prostitution Increase Human Trafficking?

This paper has investigated the impact of legalized prostitution on inflows of human trafficking. According to economic theory, there are two effects of unknown magnitude. The scale effect of legalizing prostitution leads to an expansion of the prostitution market and thus an increase in human trafficking, while the substitution effect reduces demand for trafficked prostitutes by favoring prostitutes who have legal residence in a country. Our quantitative empirical analysis for a cross-section of up to 150 countries shows that the scale effect dominates the substitution effect. On average, countries with legalized prostitution experience a larger degree of reported human trafficking inflows.

Plus the source you linked for human trafficking is not a primary source. A lot of sources it links are actually for decriminalization which drastically different from legalization. A bunch of other links like the NYT article are behind paywalls so I couldn’t read them.

Dr. Quadragon ❌
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@ksynwa There’s a problem with “human trafficking” aspect as well.

“Trafficking” problem is as engineered as “prostitution” or “drug” or “abortion” problem is. It’s borne of inablilty of some people to cross borders freely as they want. So they go to backalley traffickers.

Decriminalize human movement, and “traffickers” will lose their base.

@pH3ra

جيا ميڠ
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fucked up that arguments being made here is for the buyer rather than the worker/slave.

Catraism-Stalinism
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elaborate?

@southerntofu@lemmy.ml
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I think the rest of the thread has good arguments on the topic, but the main idea is that regulations around sex work mostly impact sex workers and not the client. Even the criminalization of clients results in bad outcomes for the workers, so if you’d like to frame prostitution as a question of workers rights and public health, it’s important to center the debate around the experiences and problems of sex workers themselves.

To paraphrase someone else, as long as money exist there will be sex work. The question is what kind of labor conditions do we want for the sex workers?

@pH3ra@lemmy.ml
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Of course regulation comes to both ends: only allowing prostitution to be legal leads to situations like in Thailand or Madagascar, where child prostitution is rampant.</br> In European countries for example, brothels (I use this term for lack of an official one) have strict costumer rules about behaviour, health and hygene.</br>

if you’d like to frame prostitution as a question of workers rights and public health, it’s important to center the debate around the experiences and problems of sex workers themselves

totally agree: in fact when I say “health” I include psichological support.

@Echedenyan@lemmy.ml
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Locking this thread as result of the situation here from some users.

@Ghast@lemmy.ml
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My opinion is that sex work should be legal.

Yay.

It would enable involuntary virgins to get a good sex experience for payment;

Oh dear…

@lordofbud@lemmy.ml
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It’s no less moral than selling your labor in other ways, hell, it’s less harmful to the self than some other forms of labor.

Capitalism makes all labor morally grey to say the least, most of us work because we have to, engaged in jobs and environments we’d prefer not to be in.

My take is, for labor to be moral(I’m not taliking about personal morality, but systemic) our essentials need to be well covered regardless of our work, and the people need systemic assistance moving from one field to another, so that what ever labor one is engaged in doesn’t feel like their only choice of participation.

I don’t know where sex work fits into my utopia, but I do know I’d prefer, I’m general, that people are only engaged in what they want to engage in.

@yxzi@lemmy.ml
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No one should get control over someone else’s body without true consent. Taking money as a bribe does not equal consent. Getting laid should take some effort. Putting money on the table doesn’t count as effort.

The thing is that mind and body can’t be divided, at least in the long run. Abuse to someone’s body is abuse to someone’s mind. There is always the risk that people abuse their “right” they “earned” with their dirty money.

It’s not the same as rape, but sex without sympathy is mentally unhealthy.

However, paying money to just talk to someone is more acceptable, albeit not necessary in an ideal world.

Torrid
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A roofer destroys his body every day he works in order to get money, or to receive a “bribe” as you put it. Does the fact that he needs money to live make this situation less consensual?

Do you imagine that he loves roofing, and that the fact he’s getting paid for it makes him abuse this right that he’s “earned?”

@yxzi@lemmy.ml
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Comparing sex work to any other form of work is a common error in thinking and indicates a lack of understanding for “the victim’s” point of view.

Sex work is just not the same, so it has to be treated special since it concerns a human’s (mainly woman’s) physical integrity & their most intimate parts. I can’t imagine that one can separate the body from the mind so clearly here, making the workers more vulnerable than in any other field of work. It’s all they have & they’re selling it. Please be more sensitive in that regard and show some respect for people’s private spheres.

Catraism-Stalinism
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I think sex is different than roofing a house

comfy
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Do you want to explain what in particular is different in a way that detracts from their point? There are a bunch of possible reasons and it’s not clear which you’re implying.

Catraism-Stalinism
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I found this in my notifs but I literally cannot find the context sorry

Torrid
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different, yes, but it doesn’t make the person doing the work any lesser or greater than a person doing some other kind of work.

a sex worker may not even run the risk of bodily harm depending on their situation, whereas it’s almost guaranteed that a roofer will.

I’m mostly making the comparison because saying things like “dirty money” and implying that sex work is more bodily abuse than any other type of hard labour is a bit naive. Each job takes something away from you. Sex work isn’t any lesser or greater than other types of work because it involves sex. The real shame is when a person is being forced or endangered to do their job in any situation.

A lot of comments that are against sex workers are based on their own personal feelings about sex and why it makes the person doing that work lesser than others. I’m making the roofer comparison because sex work is a very real thing that some people do.

It’s a service that other people pay for, and not exclusively “evil” or bad people. The vilification of the work itself, instead of those who endanger the workers, is ridiculous. That’s all I’m saying

@ree@lemmy.ml
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Your logic can be extended to all type of work. Destroying your health in a mine for a salary has similar conesequence. And for that reason sex work is just work and should be treated and legislated as such.

Btw, I don’t see why getting laid should requiere effort, seems like an unnecessary value judgment.

Torrid
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Absolutely agree with you.

If people value sex as something sacred and precious, that’s their own business. Assuming everyone holds those same beliefs is idiotic, and shaming people for how they need to survive is even more so

@ree@lemmy.ml
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I love that this forum is all about leftist this and that. But when the topic is about women bodies, comments goes full puritan & conservative.

aedalla
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90% of the incels I hear from are raging misogynists who vehemently hate women for their ability to withhold a “resource” for money. Combine that with the low social status of sex work (which is not fixable with legislation) and you are just offering these women up to be murdered (which is already the case).

There are a few things legalization of sex work does fix.

  • once it’s much easier to access legal adult prostitutes, child prostitutes become significantly less desirable to those that might otherwise seek them out.
  • you can try to weight things in the prostitute’s favor by enacting rules that make brothels and pimping a lot harder (although you still need to have a good way for them to hire their own security).
  • It’s easier for prostitutes to seek justice from abusive johns if their side of things is perfectly legal.
Catraism-Stalinism
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weird though, you’d think incels would like prostitutes, they aren’t going to get any sex otherwise

@obbeel@lemmy.ml
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Right? lol

Catraism-Stalinism
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under capitalism, legalization and government protection combined with a workers co-op is probably the best they can do

@FaygoOfficial@midwest.social
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deleted by creator

Catraism-Stalinism
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FOSTA-SESTA

what are these acts? I have not heard of them. And fuck whoever enacted them, if it causes the workers to put themselves into such danger for no reason then it is an immoral law.

@FaygoOfficial@midwest.social
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deleted by creator

Catraism-Stalinism
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my god conservatives at it again at making the problem fucking worse by making sure they can pretend it isn’t there, when it is.

Amicese
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Don’t forget about the SORMA SUGMA (BALLS) act…

aedalla
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I mean this was kinda what I meant by weighting things in favor of the prostitutes. The whole theme of my comment in general was that they’re getting hurt one way or another, but they’re getting hurt way less overall if they’re at least allowed to do it on the public record in a lot of ways.

@tracyspcy@lemmy.ml
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A product of capitalism

@Ghast@lemmy.ml
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So other systems didn’t have sex work? Feaudalism, theocracy, autocracy, none of them had sex work? This developed only once competitive businesses in the Victorian era began trading?

Catraism-Stalinism
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A more apt description would be a product of extreme needs scarcity

@Ghast@lemmy.ml
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So you’re suggesting prostitution has mostly dried up since scarcity dried up in Europe? Or that prostitution used to be much more common back when people starved to death?

comfy
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Ancient Romans had them too. Capitalism bad but it’s not always the cause, merely an antagonist in this case. Boogeymanning isn’t constructive.

Oatsteak
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If you have to pay someone to have sex with you, they don’t actually want to have sex with you. If you’re still willing to take advantage, you’re a rapist. Simple as that.

@OnishiMyers@lemmy.ml
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If you have to pay someone to have sex with you, they don’t actually want to have sex with you. If you’re still willing to take advantage, you’re a rapist. Simple as that.

How is that different than say… if you have to pay someone to tar your roof, they don’t want to tar your roof, If you are willing to take advantage you are a slaver?

Now don’t get me wrong, sex work has much worse track record of abuse than manual labor, though I would also say it’s quite probable that is because of it’s underground nature… criminalized things attract criminals, same way that illegal marijuana results in drug dealing groups that commit horrible crimes and shootings defending their territories etc…

Oatsteak
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Slaves don’t get paid, so there’s that. I get what you’re saying though. But all work under capitalism is exploitative so I don’t think there’s a contradiction there.

And look, there is obviously a difference between paying a sex worker for their uh, services, and violently assaulting someone. But you know… Semantics. It’s still having sex with someone who doesn’t actually want to have sex with you.

Amicese
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Slaves don’t get paid,

Yes they do. Capitalism revolves around workers slaves getting paid barely enough so that the bourgeois live comfortably.

@OnishiMyers@lemmy.ml
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Can’t say I disagree with you… slaves got paid… in the sense that they had their housing, food etc… covered for them. As wages are dropping to the point where they barely cover enough for, bare minimum housing, and enough food to stay alive… the only real difference is we get to have a different master quarter us than we have making us do the work, the net result is about the same.

Oatsteak
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Uuuuuuugghhhhhhhh

@OnishiMyers@lemmy.ml
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See but there’s the point, Assuming the sex worker is, being paid fairly, and chosing to do it for the money, I can’t see it as drastically different than someone doing any other task for the purposes of collecting a paycheck.

Now with both there is the exploitive nature of systems in general. IE a boss, corporation or pimp that takes 90% of the income for the product of other peoples work. Exploitive systems that force people to work in situations which they get only a fraction of the value of their work to the person, under threats of starvation, deportation, homelessness etc…

I still fail to find the killer statement on why sex work is really that different from regular work. Again asside from higher frequency of blatant abusers, and human traffickers forcing people into sex slavery.

But the general idea, cutting out possible abusive bosses, captors etc… on both scenerios.

I fail to see a difference between.

A person, accepting an offer to have sex with someone, in pre-agreed upon ways, for a pre-agreed upon price, doing what she offered to do, and recieving the agreed upon payment on completion.

A person, agreeing to an offer to paint someone’s house, to an agreed upon standard, for an agreed upon price and recieving a payment on completion.

Both of these tasks carry risks, working on a house contains risks of injury from falling, toll on body due to repetitive stress injuries, possible chemical hazards from paint/thinner etc… which also can be factored into the price. As the sex worker has risks of diseases etc…

Now yes, in either situation if human trafficking is involved. If the person painting the house, or having sex is not actually free, is actually working under threat of death and the payment is going to some other person, that is a horrific situation.

But my point is the actual nature of transactionally “selling your body”. In which case, both of these situations are more or less doing the exact same thing. It’s effectively renting yourself, accepting the damage you are doing to your body in the process of this activity, giving up your time doing a task you probably are not enjoying in this context (though there’s nothing wrong with it if you do enjoy the task even in this context), in exchange for money.

Oatsteak
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You don’t see the difference between paying someone to fix your roof and paying someone to have sex with you?

Edit: Sorry, I’m not trying to be a dick. I just want you to elaborate. I agree that both sex work and… non-sex work is exploitative under capitalism, but I mean beyond that, don’t you agree that sex work is a hell of a lot more dehumanizing and risky than re-tiling a roof is?

Not saying sex work should be illegal btw. That just seems to make things worse.

@OnishiMyers@lemmy.ml
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It’s not something I would want (for me I wouldn’t enjoy sex in a transaction situation) , but no assuming consent, both parties being mentally able and un-coerced enough to decide whether the transaction is worth it to both of them. I do not see anything inherently different in those transactions. Now for some having sex is a high psychological toll… for some it is less of a toll, same could be said for painting, for some the physical toll of climbing and painting would totally wreck their bodies and cause serious injury, for some they would be more than able to.

Sex is just an action the human body can do. It comes with risks, it can be enjoyable to some, it can be degrading or painful to some in different situations. I see nothing wrong with anyone chosing to take those actions. There is of course something wrong with people being co-erced, forced to do things they don’t want to do, and not being compensated fairly for what they chose to do.

art
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What an unhinged take. Have you ever even talked to a sex worker before?

Oatsteak
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Yes. Have you ever talked to a sex worker you weren’t paying?

Leslie(she/her)
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Prostitution is rape.

"But this woman who wouldn’t be able to afford rent or food if it weren’t for the money I give her said she loves having sex with me! She couldn’t possibly be lying to protect herself and boost my ego!"

Amicese
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I was thinking of consensual sex work (sex work that is not done by neccessity, but by people who want to do sex work); but I agree with you that sex trafficking is rape.

Leslie(she/her)
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There is nothing consensual about having to sell your body to make a living

@pH3ra@lemmy.ml
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People sell their bodies everyday to make excel spreadsheets for 10 hours straight under fluorescent lights in a cubicle that’s smaller than my bathroom or work in factories where they risk their safety because of old machineries, chemicals and hazardous environments in general. How all of this is considered better than having sex with someone in a controlled environment, where people get checked for deseases before going in, where security guards can keep you safe against violent clients and where you get to pay taxes and work for a pension?

Leslie(she/her)
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Rape is a type of sexual assault usually involving sexual intercourse or other forms of sexual penetration carried out against a person without that person’s consent. The act may be carried out by physical force, coercion, abuse of authority, or against a person who is incapable of giving valid consent.

You have no problem understanding the lack of agency of the worker in their workplace. you just don’t want to call it rape because it makes you uncomfortable.

@pH3ra@lemmy.ml
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You know, I used to work for this big company that exploited me like a slave (making excel spreadsheets for 10 hours straight under fluorescent lights in a cubicle that’s smaller than my bathroom, as a matter of fact).</br> I called that job “rape” everyday for three years and when I quit I had no problem telling that straight to my employer’s face.</br> I’m doing the exact same job self-employed now, do I still call it “rape”? Of course not, because now I’m in control of how I do it and there’s no more exploitation…</br> And I think it should be the same for sex workers, but as long as there’s no legalization and regulation it cannot happen.

Leslie(she/her)
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You can call your job whatever you want. But unlike prostitution it’s not literal rape. What makes your job exploitative is not the working conditions or the size of the company, it’s the necessity to sell your labor to get your means of subsistence. You had no choice but to keep working because you would starve and freeze to death if you didn’t. That’s why I quoted the literal definition of rape. Prostitution is literally rape.

@pH3ra@lemmy.ml
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So nothing we do, as a species, is consensual?

Leslie(she/her)
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There are alot of things we do as species that is consensual capitalism isn’t one of them.

Catraism-Stalinism
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that still applies, nothing about any of this work is consensual, because they cannot change anything about their situation, even though it is horrible, and must keep doing it in order to live. You are right about it being legal under capitalism though.

@pH3ra@lemmy.ml
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I don’t like to put it in a socialist vs. capitalist context, I think it is stretching the topic a little bit. I prefer talking about the individual: I don’t think that every people has it’s “dream job”. Sure some people wish to be doctors, lawyers and other professions, but a lot of other people don’t. So in this latter cases, how is it that prostitution in a regulated environment is worse than anything else?

Catraism-Stalinism
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I see prostitution as it is a product of capitalism. Most of those people do want to become scientists, discovering new things, writers, or something more than basically the toy of the dollar. Many countries were able to eliminate prostitution entirely after eliminating the harmful requirements for people to use it. If it is still wanted post capitalism, then something can be worked out, or they can just have sex with random people like they would anyway if they were a prostitute.

@pH3ra@lemmy.ml
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Most of those people do want to become scientists, discovering new things, writers, or something more than basically the toy of the dollar

Of course, but the same principle can be applied to people that work retail or pull a lever in a production chain. Of course prostitution is a product of capitalism, but the same is true for every job. I agree with you that capitalism generates exploitment of people, but that’s the focal part I think we should focus on to make the discussion go further and not making it sterile in the end: TLDR is the exploitment of any kind of work wrong or just prostitution in particular? IMHO it’s the first one…

Catraism-Stalinism
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work retail or pull a lever in a production chain.

those jobs are eliminated by the automation that our society strives to introduce into this place.

but the same is true for every job.

Not necessarily, to my understanding as of right now, these jobs could exist regardless, it is just the circumstances being the result of capitalist exploitation that is causing the issues with it. Sex work is entirely existent only because of worker exploitation and resource scarcity.

TLDR is the exploitation of any kind of work wrong or just prostitution in particular? IMHO it’s the first one…

It is both. I could be wrong, but as my views stand right now in this society, prostitution is not a good thing, and is a special sort of worker exploitation. Not that it should be criminalized under capitalism, as that would just cause those workers to struggle in their situation even more. Under Capitalism they should be legalized for the purpose of protection and regulation, because the exploitation will still exist regardless, and all workers must have protection in every sector of work.

This sort of reminds me of the whole drug legalization debacle (they are very different and I am not comparing the respectable worker to something like drugs, I am relating the job itself) . In our current system I agree they must be legalized, and they should even in the early to middle stage of a socialist society. But this is because drugs (I am not talking about shrooms or weed, more heroin and cocaine) are bad in general, and could fall into the wrong hands. Their legalization is to simply protect the users and the dealers. It is so that the roadways under capitalism for this product are clean and sterile, with none of the uncertainty of street purchasing. It is to make accessible ways of therapy and clean ways of use as to mitigate its human damage. Under transitory socialism all things would be under state control, so that it could slowly work at all edges of the problem to de-escalate the problem, and remove such drugs from humanity forever.

Although I would never call myself an expert or well read on this, just someone with an opinion on the matter.

Amicese
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-47 hilabete

There is nothing consensual about having to sell your body to make a living

What if both parties (including the sex worker themself) agree and consent to sex? Is that not consensual?

Sex work is the consensual exchange of sex between adults. Human trafficking and sexual exploitation of children are separate issues. They are both serious human rights abuses and crimes and should always be investigated and prosecuted.

Catraism-Stalinism
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no work is consensual under capitalism, especially sex work

@obbeel@lemmy.ml
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Nobody gives a fuck.

Catraism-Stalinism
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holy shit

This is the 7th most-commented post on lemmy.ml

What the heckorinos.

Amicese
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Still more civil than mainstream media.

Catraism-Stalinism
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I started a war

Amicese
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Yep. My dumbassery knows no bounds. This tends to happen when I try to write an opinion: I start writing; them think I properly communicated my opinion (when I actually haven’t). It usually takes me some hours to realize that.

art
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Sex work is work. Not only should sex work be legal but sex workers need to build a strong union. By claiming that “paying for sex is rape” you are completely disregarding the needs and wants of sex workers. This mentality often leads to laws that often make sex work much less safe for the workers and their clients.

Amicese
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Wait, is there a difference between sex work and prostitution?

@pH3ra@lemmy.ml
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Generally speaking, the term “prostitute” involves that the subject is exploited, while a “sex worker” is doing it by their own free will.

Dr. Quadragon ❌
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@pH3ra *their. Male and n/b sex workers exist.

@Amicchan

@pH3ra@lemmy.ml
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sorry, it slipped, edited :)

Amicese
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Oh. I should have used sex worker then. My ba.d

@obbeel@lemmy.ml
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They can try. Don’t know if these involuntary virgins will get way to fuck even paying for it.

@moonandstar@lemmygrad.ml
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incel.

Amicese
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7 hilabete

?

I thought I fit the description of an involuntary celibate during my teens (though I didn’t and don’t identify with the incel movement); but I don’t think I really wanted a romantic relationship sex; it was just puberty messing with me.

Now I’m currently voluntary celibate, because relationships and sex seem like a lot of work just for little gain. I’m not an incel.

it really shows.

Amicese
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17 hilabete

Uh… How?

loathesome dongeater
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-17 hilabete

your post

Amicese
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27 hilabete

I admittedly messed up my answer in the post; this is what I really meant.

What I mean is that I disagree with coerced prostitution; sexual exchange should only be done when people have the luxury to be able to consent; survival sex should not be criminalized or endorsed.

I dislike the amount of exploitation in the sex trade industry; the real solution would be to abolish capitalism so all people can easily get resources to survive, without despair.

Pimps should be criminalized; resources for victims should be available to sex traders.

loathesome dongeater
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17 hilabete

Alright then

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