What I’m actually saying that Europe is acting in an irrational and and self harmful way that’s at odds with its own interests
Ah, and don’t you think that’s bad? …or you just don’t think that acting in a way that harms the population should be “moralized”?
Do you think Russia is in a better position now than after the war?
I don’t think Russia’s attack on Ukraine was a rational response to NATO’s expansion or beneficial to the Russians. If you don’t like the word “justified” then you can think of it in those terms.
I’m saying that we need to consider the context that led to the decision to start the war, and talk about what could’ve been done differently to avoid the war.
Ok, what should Russia have done differently to avoid the war? or is this exclusively Europe’s responsibility?
Is Russia like a wild animal that simply reacts mechanically, taking only reactionary action, even when the decision can hurt them more than it can benefit them?
Do you really think that NATO’s expansion was such an existential threat for Russia that waging war was “rational”? Because a moment ago you were saying that “NATO expanding is pure nonsense”, that it can’t really keep up, etc. So was NATO a threat or not?
I’m referring to you saying: “And ironically, this Russian reaction is helping NATO expand further.”
Yes I said that. Is it wrong? you mean the war has not triggered several countries to start having interest in joining NATO?
And this article is even about European members of NATO wanting to spend more in military… I think this is the opposite of what Russia wanted, which is why I find it ironic.
I didn’t say it wouldn’t, but something benefiting the USA isn’t contrary to it also benefiting Russia. It’s not a zero sum game.
I didn’t say it’s a zero sum game. The fact that this whole thing is forcing everyone to make deals with the US is quite telling, imho.
Same for Europe, the deal was brutal, but the pressure was high due to the breaks with Russia. Losing European business was a hard blow for Russia too, and they are overall in a much worse position now, imho.
I’m not surprised at Europe’s stupidity, but Russia is not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed, to put it mildly. Both Russia and Europe are best when they work together… and they will destroy themselves if they continue this way.
Ah, and don’t you think that’s bad? …or you just don’t think that acting in a way that harms the population should be “moralized”?
I’ve explicitly and repeatedly explained what I think. If you have trouble understanding what I wrote then please let me know what part of it you need explained to you further.
Do you think Russia is in a better position now than after the war?
Furthermore, NATO is now in a state of complete chaos. There is infighting between Europeans internally, as well as growing ideological fractures across the Atlantic. It is not at all clear that NATO will survive the next few years. Don’t take my word for it though, here’s The Times describing the last NATO summit as Potemkin in nature.
Ok, what should Russia have done differently to avoid the war? or is this exclusively Europe’s responsibility? Is Russia like a wild animal that simply reacts mechanically, taking only reactionary action, even when the decision can hurt them more than it can benefit them?
Russia did try to avoid the war for 8 whole years. That’s what the Minsk agreements were about. The ones top European leaders have now admitted were never intended to be implemented faithfully and were used to buy time to arm Ukraine.
Perhaps what Russia should have done differently was to not wait as long as they did to intervene in the ethnic cleansing that Ukraine was conducting in Donbas with western help.
Do you really think that NATO’s expansion was such an existential threat for Russia that waging war was “rational”? Because a moment ago you were saying that “NATO expanding is pure nonsense”.
I do think that, and plenty of western experts think that as well and have been warning about this since the 90s. This only became controversial to mention after the war started. Here’s what Chomsky has to say on the issue recently:
50 prominent foreign policy experts (former senators, military officers, diplomats, etc.) sent an open letter to Clinton outlining their opposition to NATO expansion back in 1997:
George Kennan, arguably America's greatest ever foreign policy strategist, the architect of the U.S. cold war strategy warned that NATO expansion was a "tragic mistake" that ought to ultimately provoke a "bad reaction from Russia" back in 1998.
Jack F. Matlock Jr., US Ambassador to the Soviet Union from 1987-1991, warning in 1997 that NATO expansion was "the most profound strategic blunder, [encouraging] a chain of events that could produce the most serious security threat [...] since the Soviet Union collapsed"
Even Gorbachev warned about this. All these experts were marginalized, silenced, and ignored. Yet, now people are trying to rewrite history and pretend that Russia attacked Ukraine out of the blue and completely unprovoked.
Yes I said that. Is it wrong? you mean the war has not triggered several countries to start having interest in joining NATO?
Yes it is wrong, and I’ve explained in detail why it’s wrong already.
And this article is even about European members of NATO wanting to spend more in military… I think this is the opposite of what Russia wanted, which is why I find it ironic.
You seem to have this infantile notion that simply adding NATO members makes it stronger.
I didn’t say it’s a zero sum game. The fact that this whole thing is forcing everyone to make deals with the US is quite telling, imho.
Russia isn’t forced to make any deals with the US last I checked. It’s the US that’s trying to make deals with Russia right now, not the other way around.
European business was a hard blow for Russia too, and they are overall in a much worse position now, imho.
It’s not because it opened up domestic niches that are being filled by local businesses, and China was able to redirect its trade towards BRICS. For example, trade with China stands at over 200 bln now. And of course, Russian oil and gas revenues soared 41% in first half of the year, as the data shows
I’m not surprised at Europe’s stupidity, but Russia is not the smartest tool in the shed either.
Russia is now largely insulated from the economic chaos in the west because it’s mostly cut out of western economy. This alone is a huge benefit because it will insulate Russia from the economic crash that’s unfolding in the west. Russia is still able to sell its commodities to the world, and it’s no longer reliant on the western financial system to do that. It managed to strengthen relations with friendly countries. China in particular has become a strong ally for China, and its economy already surpasses the US in terms of PPP. It’s also where pretty much all technology is produced.
Both Russia and Europe are best when they work together… and they will destroy themselves if they continue this way.
Russia has other options and it has proven over past three years that it does not need Europe. Meanwhile, Europe cannot function without Russian energy.
Sorry, but if you truly don’t think that decisions that lead to suffering should be “moralized”, and you really think that it’s “rational” and in the “own interests” of a country to wage war in order to grow the economy, then I think we simply disagree on what should be the goals of a society and where its interests should lie.
From the article you linked:
Russia’s invasion of Ukraine took much of the world by surprise. It is an unprovoked and unjustified attack that will go down in history as one of the major war crimes of the 21st century, argues Noam Chomsky
Chomsky even uses the word “unjustified”. He’s saying pretty much the same thing I said.
Note how what I was asking is whether NATO’s expansion was a threat for Russia, not whether the expansion of NATO was a good decision. (or if you don’t like the word “good” then… “rational and under our own self-interest”).
I can perfectly agree with NATO’s expansion being a “bad” (sorry… irrational / self-harming) decision by the West, but that wasn’t what I asked.
You seem to have this infantile notion that simply adding NATO members makes it stronger.
hahaha… infantile? Mr. ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆ the adult.
You seem to have the delusion that I was talking about “strength” when I said “expansion”.
Is it true or is it false that the war has motivated NATO’s expansion (ie… adding members)? because that’s all I said, ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆.
Sorry, but if you truly don’t think that decisions that lead to suffering should be “moralized”, and you really think that it’s “rational” and in the “own interests” of a country to wage war in order to grow the economy, then I think we simply disagree on what should be the goals of a society.
You’re just putting words in my mouth at this point. What I said is that it’s rational for a country to respond militarily to an aggressive military alliance surrounding it. Given that NATO would be able to place nukes in Ukraine that could hit Moscow under 5 minutes, it would be insane for Russia not to respond to that.
Nowhere did I suggest that Russia started the war to grow its economy. What I said, is that Russia managed to restructure its economy away from the west, and it is not harmed by the war the way Europe is.
Chomsky even uses the word “unjustified”. He’s saying pretty much the same thing I said.
Chomsky can use whatever words he likes, but the provocations are well documented. Again, as I’ve already explained to you repeatedly, talking about justifications is not constructive. You’re back to doing moralizing here.
The question is how to avoid conflicts like this going forward. The argument about whether it’s moral for Russia to start the war does the opposite of that because it implicitly ignores the role the west played in starting the conflict.
Since people in the west have little influence over Russian actions, it is the most productive to focus on what their own governments are doing. That should be obvious, yet here we are.
Is it true or is it false that the war has motivated NATO’s expansion (ie… adding members)? because that’s all I said
I love how you’re trying to be clever here, but let’s reason through this using your adult brain Ferk. Explain why would NATO expansion be a problem for Russia if the alliance isn’t becoming stronger?
What I said is that it’s rational for a country to respond militarily to an aggressive military alliance surrounding it.
So you are saying that if there was a bordering country (let’s say… Belarus… for example) that decided to strike a military alliance with Russia (let’s say they decide to call it “Union State Treaty”… or maybe for example “ODKB”), then do you really think this should be seen as a “provocation” and that it’d be a “rational” reaction for Europe to wage war?
I don’t think war is the answer to a defense treaty. NATO was a defense treaty… a weak one (by your own admission) without a lot of military investment, specially by Europe. I disagree that it was really a threat… the same way that I would not have seen it as a threat if Russia started making some NATO-equivalent treaties with countries in the Europe-Russia border. If the roles were reversed and Ukraine joined a treaty with Russia, China and other big powers, I would be against Europe waging war. Would you not?
Nowhere did I suggest that Russia started the war to grow its economy. What I said, is that Russia managed to restructure its economy away from the west, and it is not harmed by the war the way Europe is.
Ah, so the economic boom has nothing to do with the war? Because what I wanted to ask is whether the war caused self-harm or benefit.
In your last bit there it seems you are hinting that Russia was harmed by the war, even if it wasn’t harmed “the way Europe is”.
So… which one is it? was the war a rational benefitial thing for Russia that resulted in them being better off? or was it an irrational self-harming thing (even if not “the way” it was for Europe)?
You’re back to doing moralizing here
Chomsky is too. I believe that if you don’t have morals in regards to which decisions are beneficial for a society then is when discussing these topics does become “not constructive”.
it implicitly ignores the role the west played in starting the conflict.
I have no problem accepting the role of the West. I agree that NATO’s expansion was a “morally bad” (irrational / self-harm) decision because it should have been the better person and realize earlier that Russia would end up behaving the way they did (irrationally).
My point is that Russia feeling entitled to wage a war was also “morally bad” (irrational / self-harm). I’m saying this because I feel that your comments imply that Russia was completely rational in waging war.
reason through this using your adult brain Ferk.
hahahaha thank you! I’ll try to explain it clearly Mr. ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆! :D
Explain why would NATO expansion be a problem for Russia if the alliance isn’t becoming stronger?
Huh? That’s not what I said.
My point is that NATO expansion was NOT a real threat/problem for Russia. That’s why I think the attack was (to use Chomky’s words): “unprovoked and unjustified”.
So you are saying that if there was a bordering country (let’s say… Belarus… for example) that decided to strike a military alliance with Russia (let’s say they decide to call it “Union State Treaty”), then this should be seen as a “provocation” and you’d think it to be a “rational” reaction for Europe to wage war?
I’m saying that when USSR put nuclear weapons in Cuba we know what the reaction from the US was. This is not a hypothetical debate.
I don’t think war is the answer to a defense treaty
NATO is not a defense treaty. It’s an aggressive organization that has been invading and destroying countries for decades now. Go read up on Yugoslavia and Libya as two examples. Meanwhile, the key member of NATO has been at a state of continues war all around the world.
I disagree that it was really a threat… the same way that I would not have seen it as a threat if Russia started making some NATO-equivalent treaties with countries in the Europe-Russia border.
It’s entirely irrelevant what you think. What matters is how Russia perceives NATO. The fact of the matter is that NATO should have been disbanded when USSR dissolved. Yet, for some reason it was not. Then Russia offered to join NATO and create a joint security alliance on equal terms, but was rebuffed by NATO.
You keep trying to paint this as a neutral situation, but the facts are against you. NATO is the organization that has been expanding towards Russia despite giving guarantees to the contrary in the 90s.
Ah, so the economic boom has nothing to do with the war? Because what I wanted to ask is whether the war caused self-harm or benefit.
Russia did not invade Ukraine for economic reasons. The economic boom is the result of Russian being much better at restructuring its economy than Europe.
In your last bit there it seems you are hinting that Russia was harmed by the war, even if it wasn’t harmed “the way Europe is”.
Where was I hinting that?
Chomsky is too. I believe that if you don’t have morals in regards to which decisions are beneficial for a society then is when discussing these topics does become “not constructive”.
The elephant in the room is that the west is not able to impose its morals on Russia. We can control what we do in the west, and the question becomes whether we should take actions that lead to war or to peace.
Avoiding a war requires empathy. The west has to honestly acknowledge that Russia has legitimate interests of its own, and security concerns that the west has been trampling over. Then the rational thing to do is to find a compromise that both sides can see as being preferable to open war. That’s how diplomacy works.
Instead, the west tried to impost its will on Russia while disregarding Russian concerns, and that led to a conflict that the west is now losing.
My point is that Russia feeling entitled to wage a war was also “morally bad” (irrational / self-harm). I’m saying this because I feel that your comments imply that Russia was completely rational in waging war.
Can you demonstrate in what way this was irrational self harm on the part of Russia? I gave you concrete examples in this thread showing that standard of living in Russia has improved during the time of the war, Russian economy has grown, Russian military has become far stronger, and Russia has become a much more important geopolitical player in the world. In what way has Russia irrationally self harmed itself?
My point is that NATO expansion was NOT a threat for Russia. That’s why I think the attack was (to use Chomky’s words): “unprovoked and unjustified”.
I literally provide you with many quotes and references from top western academics, diplomats, and politicians who disagree with your bold statement mr Ferk. I love how you cherry picked a single line from Chomsky while ignoring all the rest to make another straw man. Very mature of you.
I’m saying that when USSR put nuclear weapons in Cuba we know what the reaction from the US was. This is not a hypothetical debate.
Do you think the US reaction was “rational”?
That said, putting nuclear weapons is not the same as having a treaty. I don’t want the US to set up their nuclear weapons in Europe… I’m against that too.
NATO is not a defense treaty. It’s an aggressive organization that has been invading and destroying countries for decades now. Go read up on Yugoslavia and Libya as two examples. Meanwhile, the key member of NATO has been at a state of continues war all around the world.
Whenever a “defense treaty” takes any action it’s always gonna be controversial because each side is always gonna argue that they are the ones that are actually defending themselves, each is gonna have a version of what they consider “pacekeeping”, “humanitarian protection”, etc.
But why would you think that the Russians would be any different? Do you really think this is one sided and Russia would not try to argue that they did not start any attacks even when they might have actually attacked? (even if it were to be by accident! …or because of orders to pull off not arriving in time…)
Also… you said “this is not a hypothetical debate” but at the same time you say that the level of “aggression” isn’t the same… so tell me: if Russia DID set up an organization in the same level of “aggression” as NATO (whichever high you may believe that is), do you really think that Europe should be “rational” in reacting by automatically waging war against the country that the treaty is written with?
Where was I hinting that?
Here: “it is not harmed by the war the way Europe is”
You qualify it by saying “the way Europe is”, implying that there might be some “way” harm was inflicted, just not in the same “way” (or level?) as Europe.
Do you really think Russia received ZERO harm? the war caused no suffering at all to any Russian?
the west is not able to impose its morals on Russia.
Sorry, but I’m not “the west” … Chomsky is not “the west”, you are not “the west” (or are you?)
Me, Chomsky, and any person with a set of moral standards should be allowed to judge whether they think that an action made by any third party is morally “good” or “bad”… if someone came and tried to kill someone else I would have no problem in accusing the killer of doing something wrong, regardless of whether they would listen to me or not.
We can of course try and take measures to try to prevent that person from committing acts that cause harm (and sure, that might imply making concessions… like agreeing for us to drop the knives, if that works at preventing them from using theirs), but that does not mean that this person is immune from being judged in moral grounds when they actually go and kill someone.
If you truly believed that what the Russians did was not causing harm… if it truly was a just and well deserved war that is actually good and rational, then maybe Europe should not try to prevent it. But if the attack was a bad thing, morally, rationally, and in terms of causing harm, for both Ukrainians and Russians, then it’s something that should be prevented. Even if you think that one side might have been more hurt than the other, that does not make it right for the “winner”. There are no real winners here.
Can you demonstrate in what way this was irrational self harm on the part of Russia? I gave you concrete examples in this thread showing that standard of living in Russia has improved during the time of the war, Russian economy has grown, Russian military has become far stronger, and Russia has become a much more important geopolitical player in the world
Before, you told me that these things (the economic growth, etc) had nothing to do with the war… now you are using those things as a reason why the war was ok to wage?
In wars like these, you are either profiting from the suffering of others or (and often, in addition to) causing suffering for sections of your population. It does not matter whether it’s Russia, US, Europe or whoever it is that wages the war.
I literally provide you with many quotes and references from top western academics, diplomats, and politicians who disagree with your bold statement mr Ferk.
I literally said, I think this is the third time… but I’ll repeat that I think the west was wrong in what they did, that NATO should not have expanded. I agree with those western academics.
Do you understand that? Do you disagree with that? I hope not!
The one statement that you seem to disagree with is the other one, the one I made before and that Chomsky agrees with, the one concerning Russian actions in response to NATO expansion. The one that states that the action was not “rational” because NATO wasn’t really a threat FOR RUSSIA. It might be still be a threat FOR WORLD PEACE to expand NATO because of the reaction many, including those experts, were predicting Russia would have). This is not the same statement, Mr. ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆.
I do, it’s rational for them not to want to have nukes on their doorstep just as it’s rational for Russia to want the same.
That said, putting nuclear weapons is not the same as having a treaty. I would not want the US to set up nuclear weapons in Europe… I would be completely against that too.
Yet, the US does precisely that in Europe right now making it a target for Russian nuclear weapons.
Whenever a “defense treaty” takes any action it’s always gonna be controversial because each side is always gonna gonna argue that they are the ones that are actually defending themselves, each is gonna have a version of what they consider “pacekeeping”, “humanitarian protection”, etc.
NATO has been invading countries contrary to all international laws and norms. Only valid peacekeeping is done through the UN.
But why would you think that the Russians would be any different?
Russians literally wanted to join NATO and create a joint security framework that would be acceptable to everyone. Why did NATO reject that?
if Russia DID set up an organization in the same level of NATO (so the same level of “aggression” whichever you believe that level is), do you really think that Europe should be “rational” in waging war against the country that the treaty is written with?
If Europe thought it could win against Russia and it had credible evidence that Russia was setting up an organization to invade Europe then it would be rational for Europe to take military action. However, none of that is actually happening last I checked.
You qualify he level of harm by saying “the way Europe is”, implying that there’s a level of harm inflicted to Russia, just that you don’t think it’s in the same level as Europe.
No, it doesn’t imply a level of harm. I’m literally saying Russia is not harmed while Europe is harmed. I’ve also provided you with concrete sources detailing the state of things in Russia. I think I’ve been quite clear regarding what I actually meant.
Do you really think Russia received ZERO harm? the war caused no suffering at all to any Russian?
I think there was initial harm to Russia at the start of the war, but on the whole it seems pretty clear that the overall situation in Russia has improved compared to prewar period now. Amusingly, a lot of it has to do with the economic decoupling from the west. This forced Russia to actually start investing in domestic industry and revival of what became the rust belt after the fall of USSR. You keep talking about harm to Russia, but you still haven’t provided any examples of what you mean by it. I’ve given you plenty of sources supporting what I say. Feel free to explain in concrete terms what you believe the harm to Russia is.
We can of course try and take measures to try to prevent that person from committing acts that cause harm, but that does not mean that this person is immune from being judged in moral grounds.
Do you think Russians are losing sleep over you judging them?
But the reality is that the attack was a bad thing.
The reality is that you can’t just arbitrarily pick a point and decide that history starts now. The attack you lament was a response to decades of actions by the west that have been well documented, and with many people having warned that continuation of such actions would lead to a military response from Russia. Now that it happened you evidently want to ignore the actions that led up to this response and frame it was Russia being wrong morally.
There are no real winners here.
I think the side that’s actually growing stronger both militarily and economically is objectively the winner.
Before, you told me that these things (the economic growth, etc) had nothing to do with the war… now you are using those things as a reason why the war was ok to wage?
Do you have reading comprehension problems? What I said was that growing the economy was NOT THE REASON why Russia went to war. However, in the course of the war Russian economy did improve because Russia managed to do good planning. Let me know if you’re still struggling to comprehend this and I have to use smaller words. I’ve explained this three times now.
In wars like these, you are either profiting from the suffering of others or (and often, in addition to) causing suffering for sections of your population. It does not matter whether it’s Russia, US, Europe or whoever it is that wages the war.
The cause of the war was NATO expanding to Russian borders and Russia responding to that. This is now acknowledged by everyone including the former chief of NATO. This is what the conflict is about. The fact that Russia managed its economy well during this time does not imply that Russia is profiting from the war. It’s absolutely incredible that you have so much trouble understanding these basic concepts.
I literally said it 3… maybe 4 times… but I’ll repeat that I think the west was wrong in what they did, that NATO should not have expanded. I agree with those western academics.
And yet, you also continue to insist that the war was unjustified and unprovoked, citing Chomsky over and over here. Pick a lane bud.
The one that states that the action was not “rational” because NATO wasn’t really a threat FOR RUSSIA (it might be a threat to expand it BECAUSE of the “unjustified” reaction many were predicting Russia would have). This is not the same statement, Mr. ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆.
Yet, the sources I provided you very clearly state that NATO was a credible threat to Russia. In fact, this article in National Interest that was published in 2021 EXPLICITLY states that the goal the US had was to break Russia:
It is absolutely surreal that you continue that NATO was not a threat to Russia when the key NATO member openly discusses policy of dismembering Russia in preparation for war on China. This is absolute clown shit.
it’s rational for them not to want to have nukes on their doorstep just as it’s rational for Russia to want the same.
You agree with me there then.
Yet, the US does precisely that in Europe right now making it a target for Russian nuclear weapons
And I’m against that. Are you not? I don’t see what point you are making.
Only valid peacekeeping is done through the UN.
Yes, that’s what NATO argues. NATO’s intervention in Libya was authorized by UN Security Council Resolution 1973.
Similarly with NATO’s intervention in the former Yugoslavia, they claim to enforce UN mandate. The UN has no army to enforce anything on their own.
As I said, of course each side will always twist the narrative to their advantage. You cannot just say that one side is right and pretend that you are being impartial and unaffected by propaganda.
Russians literally wanted to join NATO and create a joint security framework that would be acceptable to everyone. Why did NATO reject that?
They shouldn’t have rejected it. No.
If Europe thought it could win against Russia and it had credible evidence that Russia was setting up an organization to invade Europe then it would be rational for Europe to take military action
I disagree sorry. It would be wrong and stupid for Europe to wage war against their Russian neighbors and create an environment that ultimately would lead to self-harm. Waging war is not benefitial. Europe being capable of winning (your scenario) would also mean that the Russia alliance would be less of a threat… so I think attacking then would just be bullying and that decision would end up coming back to bite us at some point in the future. It would motivate our neighbors to guard themselves and invest in military, and it would also cause diplomatic problems in future relationships.
Do you think Russians are losing sleep over you judging them?
No. Why would you presume that?
Do you have reading comprehension problems?
I think we are talking past each other… these questions are clearly in bad faith and what follows shows that you misinterpreted the question that elicited the previous answer you are referring to.
I feel I’ve already explained myself way too much in too many ways, and I don’t think we are gonna reach anywhere here. I don’t think it’s worth continuing.
Ah, and don’t you think that’s bad? …or you just don’t think that acting in a way that harms the population should be “moralized”?
Do you think Russia is in a better position now than after the war? I don’t think Russia’s attack on Ukraine was a rational response to NATO’s expansion or beneficial to the Russians. If you don’t like the word “justified” then you can think of it in those terms.
Ok, what should Russia have done differently to avoid the war? or is this exclusively Europe’s responsibility? Is Russia like a wild animal that simply reacts mechanically, taking only reactionary action, even when the decision can hurt them more than it can benefit them?
Do you really think that NATO’s expansion was such an existential threat for Russia that waging war was “rational”? Because a moment ago you were saying that “NATO expanding is pure nonsense”, that it can’t really keep up, etc. So was NATO a threat or not?
Yes I said that. Is it wrong? you mean the war has not triggered several countries to start having interest in joining NATO?
And this article is even about European members of NATO wanting to spend more in military… I think this is the opposite of what Russia wanted, which is why I find it ironic.
I didn’t say it’s a zero sum game. The fact that this whole thing is forcing everyone to make deals with the US is quite telling, imho.
Same for Europe, the deal was brutal, but the pressure was high due to the breaks with Russia. Losing European business was a hard blow for Russia too, and they are overall in a much worse position now, imho.
I’m not surprised at Europe’s stupidity, but Russia is not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed, to put it mildly. Both Russia and Europe are best when they work together… and they will destroy themselves if they continue this way.
I’ve explicitly and repeatedly explained what I think. If you have trouble understanding what I wrote then please let me know what part of it you need explained to you further.
Absolutely, the World Bank just reclassified Russia as a high income country, and the IMF forecasts that Russian economy is set to grow faster than all the western economies. Russia has also demonstrated that it is able to take on NATO militarily, and given that it is winning the war, it will dictate the terms in Ukraine.
Furthermore, NATO is now in a state of complete chaos. There is infighting between Europeans internally, as well as growing ideological fractures across the Atlantic. It is not at all clear that NATO will survive the next few years. Don’t take my word for it though, here’s The Times describing the last NATO summit as Potemkin in nature.
Russia did try to avoid the war for 8 whole years. That’s what the Minsk agreements were about. The ones top European leaders have now admitted were never intended to be implemented faithfully and were used to buy time to arm Ukraine.
Perhaps what Russia should have done differently was to not wait as long as they did to intervene in the ethnic cleansing that Ukraine was conducting in Donbas with western help.
I do think that, and plenty of western experts think that as well and have been warning about this since the 90s. This only became controversial to mention after the war started. Here’s what Chomsky has to say on the issue recently:
https://truthout.org/articles/us-approach-to-ukraine-and-russia-has-left-the-domain-of-rational-discourse/
https://truthout.org/articles/noam-chomsky-us-military-escalation-against-russia-would-have-no-victors/
50 prominent foreign policy experts (former senators, military officers, diplomats, etc.) sent an open letter to Clinton outlining their opposition to NATO expansion back in 1997:
George Kennan, arguably America's greatest ever foreign policy strategist, the architect of the U.S. cold war strategy warned that NATO expansion was a "tragic mistake" that ought to ultimately provoke a "bad reaction from Russia" back in 1998.
Jack F. Matlock Jr., US Ambassador to the Soviet Union from 1987-1991, warning in 1997 that NATO expansion was "the most profound strategic blunder, [encouraging] a chain of events that could produce the most serious security threat [...] since the Soviet Union collapsed"
Even Gorbachev warned about this. All these experts were marginalized, silenced, and ignored. Yet, now people are trying to rewrite history and pretend that Russia attacked Ukraine out of the blue and completely unprovoked.
Yes it is wrong, and I’ve explained in detail why it’s wrong already.
You seem to have this infantile notion that simply adding NATO members makes it stronger.
Russia isn’t forced to make any deals with the US last I checked. It’s the US that’s trying to make deals with Russia right now, not the other way around.
It’s not because it opened up domestic niches that are being filled by local businesses, and China was able to redirect its trade towards BRICS. For example, trade with China stands at over 200 bln now. And of course, Russian oil and gas revenues soared 41% in first half of the year, as the data shows
Russia is now largely insulated from the economic chaos in the west because it’s mostly cut out of western economy. This alone is a huge benefit because it will insulate Russia from the economic crash that’s unfolding in the west. Russia is still able to sell its commodities to the world, and it’s no longer reliant on the western financial system to do that. It managed to strengthen relations with friendly countries. China in particular has become a strong ally for China, and its economy already surpasses the US in terms of PPP. It’s also where pretty much all technology is produced.
Russia has other options and it has proven over past three years that it does not need Europe. Meanwhile, Europe cannot function without Russian energy.
Sorry, but if you truly don’t think that decisions that lead to suffering should be “moralized”, and you really think that it’s “rational” and in the “own interests” of a country to wage war in order to grow the economy, then I think we simply disagree on what should be the goals of a society and where its interests should lie.
From the article you linked:
Chomsky even uses the word “unjustified”. He’s saying pretty much the same thing I said.
Note how what I was asking is whether NATO’s expansion was a threat for Russia, not whether the expansion of NATO was a good decision. (or if you don’t like the word “good” then… “rational and under our own self-interest”).
I can perfectly agree with NATO’s expansion being a “bad” (sorry… irrational / self-harming) decision by the West, but that wasn’t what I asked.
hahaha… infantile? Mr. ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆ the adult.
You seem to have the delusion that I was talking about “strength” when I said “expansion”.
Is it true or is it false that the war has motivated NATO’s expansion (ie… adding members)? because that’s all I said, ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆.
You’re just putting words in my mouth at this point. What I said is that it’s rational for a country to respond militarily to an aggressive military alliance surrounding it. Given that NATO would be able to place nukes in Ukraine that could hit Moscow under 5 minutes, it would be insane for Russia not to respond to that.
Nowhere did I suggest that Russia started the war to grow its economy. What I said, is that Russia managed to restructure its economy away from the west, and it is not harmed by the war the way Europe is.
Chomsky can use whatever words he likes, but the provocations are well documented. Again, as I’ve already explained to you repeatedly, talking about justifications is not constructive. You’re back to doing moralizing here.
The question is how to avoid conflicts like this going forward. The argument about whether it’s moral for Russia to start the war does the opposite of that because it implicitly ignores the role the west played in starting the conflict.
Since people in the west have little influence over Russian actions, it is the most productive to focus on what their own governments are doing. That should be obvious, yet here we are.
I love how you’re trying to be clever here, but let’s reason through this using your adult brain Ferk. Explain why would NATO expansion be a problem for Russia if the alliance isn’t becoming stronger?
So you are saying that if there was a bordering country (let’s say… Belarus… for example) that decided to strike a military alliance with Russia (let’s say they decide to call it “Union State Treaty”… or maybe for example “ODKB”), then do you really think this should be seen as a “provocation” and that it’d be a “rational” reaction for Europe to wage war?
I don’t think war is the answer to a defense treaty. NATO was a defense treaty… a weak one (by your own admission) without a lot of military investment, specially by Europe. I disagree that it was really a threat… the same way that I would not have seen it as a threat if Russia started making some NATO-equivalent treaties with countries in the Europe-Russia border. If the roles were reversed and Ukraine joined a treaty with Russia, China and other big powers, I would be against Europe waging war. Would you not?
Ah, so the economic boom has nothing to do with the war? Because what I wanted to ask is whether the war caused self-harm or benefit.
In your last bit there it seems you are hinting that Russia was harmed by the war, even if it wasn’t harmed “the way Europe is”.
So… which one is it? was the war a rational benefitial thing for Russia that resulted in them being better off? or was it an irrational self-harming thing (even if not “the way” it was for Europe)?
Chomsky is too. I believe that if you don’t have morals in regards to which decisions are beneficial for a society then is when discussing these topics does become “not constructive”.
I have no problem accepting the role of the West. I agree that NATO’s expansion was a “morally bad” (irrational / self-harm) decision because it should have been the better person and realize earlier that Russia would end up behaving the way they did (irrationally).
My point is that Russia feeling entitled to wage a war was also “morally bad” (irrational / self-harm). I’m saying this because I feel that your comments imply that Russia was completely rational in waging war.
hahahaha thank you! I’ll try to explain it clearly Mr. ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆! :D
Huh? That’s not what I said.
My point is that NATO expansion was NOT a real threat/problem for Russia. That’s why I think the attack was (to use Chomky’s words): “unprovoked and unjustified”.
I’m saying that when USSR put nuclear weapons in Cuba we know what the reaction from the US was. This is not a hypothetical debate.
NATO is not a defense treaty. It’s an aggressive organization that has been invading and destroying countries for decades now. Go read up on Yugoslavia and Libya as two examples. Meanwhile, the key member of NATO has been at a state of continues war all around the world.
It’s entirely irrelevant what you think. What matters is how Russia perceives NATO. The fact of the matter is that NATO should have been disbanded when USSR dissolved. Yet, for some reason it was not. Then Russia offered to join NATO and create a joint security alliance on equal terms, but was rebuffed by NATO.
You keep trying to paint this as a neutral situation, but the facts are against you. NATO is the organization that has been expanding towards Russia despite giving guarantees to the contrary in the 90s.
Russia did not invade Ukraine for economic reasons. The economic boom is the result of Russian being much better at restructuring its economy than Europe.
Where was I hinting that?
The elephant in the room is that the west is not able to impose its morals on Russia. We can control what we do in the west, and the question becomes whether we should take actions that lead to war or to peace.
Avoiding a war requires empathy. The west has to honestly acknowledge that Russia has legitimate interests of its own, and security concerns that the west has been trampling over. Then the rational thing to do is to find a compromise that both sides can see as being preferable to open war. That’s how diplomacy works.
Instead, the west tried to impost its will on Russia while disregarding Russian concerns, and that led to a conflict that the west is now losing.
Can you demonstrate in what way this was irrational self harm on the part of Russia? I gave you concrete examples in this thread showing that standard of living in Russia has improved during the time of the war, Russian economy has grown, Russian military has become far stronger, and Russia has become a much more important geopolitical player in the world. In what way has Russia irrationally self harmed itself?
I literally provide you with many quotes and references from top western academics, diplomats, and politicians who disagree with your bold statement mr Ferk. I love how you cherry picked a single line from Chomsky while ignoring all the rest to make another straw man. Very mature of you.
Do you think the US reaction was “rational”?
That said, putting nuclear weapons is not the same as having a treaty. I don’t want the US to set up their nuclear weapons in Europe… I’m against that too.
Whenever a “defense treaty” takes any action it’s always gonna be controversial because each side is always gonna argue that they are the ones that are actually defending themselves, each is gonna have a version of what they consider “pacekeeping”, “humanitarian protection”, etc.
But why would you think that the Russians would be any different? Do you really think this is one sided and Russia would not try to argue that they did not start any attacks even when they might have actually attacked? (even if it were to be by accident! …or because of orders to pull off not arriving in time…)
Also… you said “this is not a hypothetical debate” but at the same time you say that the level of “aggression” isn’t the same… so tell me: if Russia DID set up an organization in the same level of “aggression” as NATO (whichever high you may believe that is), do you really think that Europe should be “rational” in reacting by automatically waging war against the country that the treaty is written with?
Here: “it is not harmed by the war the way Europe is”
You qualify it by saying “the way Europe is”, implying that there might be some “way” harm was inflicted, just not in the same “way” (or level?) as Europe.
Do you really think Russia received ZERO harm? the war caused no suffering at all to any Russian?
Sorry, but I’m not “the west” … Chomsky is not “the west”, you are not “the west” (or are you?)
Me, Chomsky, and any person with a set of moral standards should be allowed to judge whether they think that an action made by any third party is morally “good” or “bad”… if someone came and tried to kill someone else I would have no problem in accusing the killer of doing something wrong, regardless of whether they would listen to me or not.
We can of course try and take measures to try to prevent that person from committing acts that cause harm (and sure, that might imply making concessions… like agreeing for us to drop the knives, if that works at preventing them from using theirs), but that does not mean that this person is immune from being judged in moral grounds when they actually go and kill someone.
If you truly believed that what the Russians did was not causing harm… if it truly was a just and well deserved war that is actually good and rational, then maybe Europe should not try to prevent it. But if the attack was a bad thing, morally, rationally, and in terms of causing harm, for both Ukrainians and Russians, then it’s something that should be prevented. Even if you think that one side might have been more hurt than the other, that does not make it right for the “winner”. There are no real winners here.
Before, you told me that these things (the economic growth, etc) had nothing to do with the war… now you are using those things as a reason why the war was ok to wage?
In wars like these, you are either profiting from the suffering of others or (and often, in addition to) causing suffering for sections of your population. It does not matter whether it’s Russia, US, Europe or whoever it is that wages the war.
I literally said, I think this is the third time… but I’ll repeat that I think the west was wrong in what they did, that NATO should not have expanded. I agree with those western academics.
Do you understand that? Do you disagree with that? I hope not!
The one statement that you seem to disagree with is the other one, the one I made before and that Chomsky agrees with, the one concerning Russian actions in response to NATO expansion. The one that states that the action was not “rational” because NATO wasn’t really a threat FOR RUSSIA. It might be still be a threat FOR WORLD PEACE to expand NATO because of the reaction many, including those experts, were predicting Russia would have). This is not the same statement, Mr. ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆.
I do, it’s rational for them not to want to have nukes on their doorstep just as it’s rational for Russia to want the same.
Yet, the US does precisely that in Europe right now making it a target for Russian nuclear weapons.
NATO has been invading countries contrary to all international laws and norms. Only valid peacekeeping is done through the UN.
Russians literally wanted to join NATO and create a joint security framework that would be acceptable to everyone. Why did NATO reject that?
If Europe thought it could win against Russia and it had credible evidence that Russia was setting up an organization to invade Europe then it would be rational for Europe to take military action. However, none of that is actually happening last I checked.
No, it doesn’t imply a level of harm. I’m literally saying Russia is not harmed while Europe is harmed. I’ve also provided you with concrete sources detailing the state of things in Russia. I think I’ve been quite clear regarding what I actually meant.
I think there was initial harm to Russia at the start of the war, but on the whole it seems pretty clear that the overall situation in Russia has improved compared to prewar period now. Amusingly, a lot of it has to do with the economic decoupling from the west. This forced Russia to actually start investing in domestic industry and revival of what became the rust belt after the fall of USSR. You keep talking about harm to Russia, but you still haven’t provided any examples of what you mean by it. I’ve given you plenty of sources supporting what I say. Feel free to explain in concrete terms what you believe the harm to Russia is.
Do you think Russians are losing sleep over you judging them?
The reality is that you can’t just arbitrarily pick a point and decide that history starts now. The attack you lament was a response to decades of actions by the west that have been well documented, and with many people having warned that continuation of such actions would lead to a military response from Russia. Now that it happened you evidently want to ignore the actions that led up to this response and frame it was Russia being wrong morally.
I think the side that’s actually growing stronger both militarily and economically is objectively the winner.
Do you have reading comprehension problems? What I said was that growing the economy was NOT THE REASON why Russia went to war. However, in the course of the war Russian economy did improve because Russia managed to do good planning. Let me know if you’re still struggling to comprehend this and I have to use smaller words. I’ve explained this three times now.
The cause of the war was NATO expanding to Russian borders and Russia responding to that. This is now acknowledged by everyone including the former chief of NATO. This is what the conflict is about. The fact that Russia managed its economy well during this time does not imply that Russia is profiting from the war. It’s absolutely incredible that you have so much trouble understanding these basic concepts.
And yet, you also continue to insist that the war was unjustified and unprovoked, citing Chomsky over and over here. Pick a lane bud.
Yet, the sources I provided you very clearly state that NATO was a credible threat to Russia. In fact, this article in National Interest that was published in 2021 EXPLICITLY states that the goal the US had was to break Russia:
https://nationalinterest.org/feature/strategy-avoiding-two-front-war-192137
It is absolutely surreal that you continue that NATO was not a threat to Russia when the key NATO member openly discusses policy of dismembering Russia in preparation for war on China. This is absolute clown shit.
You agree with me there then.
And I’m against that. Are you not? I don’t see what point you are making.
Yes, that’s what NATO argues. NATO’s intervention in Libya was authorized by UN Security Council Resolution 1973. Similarly with NATO’s intervention in the former Yugoslavia, they claim to enforce UN mandate. The UN has no army to enforce anything on their own.
As I said, of course each side will always twist the narrative to their advantage. You cannot just say that one side is right and pretend that you are being impartial and unaffected by propaganda.
They shouldn’t have rejected it. No.
I disagree sorry. It would be wrong and stupid for Europe to wage war against their Russian neighbors and create an environment that ultimately would lead to self-harm. Waging war is not benefitial. Europe being capable of winning (your scenario) would also mean that the Russia alliance would be less of a threat… so I think attacking then would just be bullying and that decision would end up coming back to bite us at some point in the future. It would motivate our neighbors to guard themselves and invest in military, and it would also cause diplomatic problems in future relationships.
No. Why would you presume that?
I think we are talking past each other… these questions are clearly in bad faith and what follows shows that you misinterpreted the question that elicited the previous answer you are referring to.
I feel I’ve already explained myself way too much in too many ways, and I don’t think we are gonna reach anywhere here. I don’t think it’s worth continuing.