Lokinet is a onion-router (like tor, i2p) implementation of the LLARP protocol which tries to be a modern re-implementation of i2p. Session is a private messenger (like Signal) built using lokinet to hide metadata. If I understand correctly they have a cryptocurrency called oxen, which is earned or mined by providing servers to the loki network and oxen blockchain.

Imo they have these arguments on their side:

  • i2p is really slow and if re-implementing yields the results they claim it would be awesome
  • building a private messenger on top of onion-routing seems like a very good idea, since metadata is the new surveillance while it doesn’t generate massive amounts of traffic per user

What I worry about:

  • I don’t like cryptocurrencies in general, they haven’t yet proven that they can be used as anything but be used to speculate.
  • if people who are supposed to be the backbone of the onion-routing service are paid to do this I worry that in some (maybe new and still unknown) way this will weaken the network in comparison to a network run by volunteers and users (like tor and i2p). Maybe this will favor larger servers so all of the onion-routing is done in “the cloud” and none from home which in result is easier to surveil.
  • a talk at the yearly chaos computer congress about the alt-rights online behavior titled “Let’s play Infokrieg” (the talk is in German, but I linked the version with english live translation) talks about lokinet and how the developer advertised it on 8chan. This is all the connection they mention though and it’s pretty thin Imo.
  • in general I believe that cryptocurrencies don’t draw a very good crowd, also
  • I haven’t seen any reputable source advertise any of this. Not Lokinet, not session messenger, of course not their crypto coin…

Conclusion:

All of this isn’t a big problem, if they stay a small project. But them having the fastest onion-router, elon musk maybe tweeting about them and people flocking to them to “invest” might have the project gain momentum and them being the new tor or even bigger, applications built on top of it being a threat to signal etc.

I think some of their tech is very cool, a fast and modern onion-router could be very important for future secure web applications, but it’s troublesome

  • it’s in the hands of people nobody knows
  • motivated by financial gain
  • coupled with cryptocurrency

What are your thoughts on this? I am really interested to hear, how we should tackle this in your opinion.

  • fidibus@lemmy.161.socialOP
    1·
    4 years ago

    I see that the announcement advertising post wasn’t on 8chan or 8kun but overchan, which makes sense, since jeff worked on nntp-chan. Sorry that I claimed they did.

    8kun (rebrand after 8chan was banned) does host their site on lokinet and still does, for two years now though, right?

    Also there is this reddit post where someone claims that

    So it’s pure coincidence that Ron’s father Jim Watson, who has been hosting 8chan and is now running 8kun, has transferred some of his old business into a “Loki Technology Inc.” of his own some time ago (see https://www.5ch.net), and that 8kun’s planned “Project ODIN” caters to the same Norse mythology theme. It almost made me wonder, especially since Loki’s dev Jeff has also been active on endchan.

    Their name actually is Jim Watkins and wikipedia also states that

    Watkins also runs the Manila-based business Loki Technology.

    What is going on here? Nothing to do with the Oxen, lokinet etc?

    Is it just a coincidence that the biggest site hosted on your network is 8kun?

    Also: $17k min investment to help the network, lmao that’s insane and I can’t imagine that does any good.

    • KeeJef
      3·
      4 years ago

      8kun (rebrand after 8chan was banned) does host their site on lokinet and still does, for two years now though, right?

      8kun only had a SNApp on Lokinet for about 2-3 weeks, they also had a .onion site on Tor too, but at that point Lokinet was very new and the network could not handle any real production level scale, so they quickly had technical issues and left.

      Is it just a coincidence that the biggest site hosted on your network is 8kun?

      8kun doesn’t have any SNApp / .loki address that i know about, and it hasn’t been the case for years that they have had 8kun running on Lokinet

      So it’s pure coincidence that Ron’s father Jim Watson, who has been hosting 8chan and is now running 8kun, has transferred some of his old business into a “Loki Technology Inc.” of his own some time ago (see https://www.5ch.net), and that 8kun’s planned “Project ODIN” caters to the same Norse mythology theme. It almost made me wonder, especially since Loki’s dev Jeff has also been active on endchan.

      Also coincidence, Loki Technology Inc and Project ODIN have no relationship to Oxen (Formerly Loki) I’ve never met any of the 8kun people, Jim watkins, Ron watkins or any of them, and didnt know about them before they started using Lokinet to host 8kun. We started Oxen (Formerly Loki) in 2018 in Australia and had no idea about 8chan.

      Also: $17k min investment to help the network, lmao that’s insane and I can’t imagine that does any good.

      Its a different type of network structure, it has been essential in forming our network of nearly ~1,800 Service Nodes which act as the routers in Lokinet

      • fidibus@lemmy.161.socialOP
        2·
        4 years ago

        I found another interesting article:

        Simon Harman, 23, Loki’s project lead, said Mr Watkin’s plan was by and large a surprise — and one, he conceded, that might not be optimal for the company’s emerging reputation.

        Mr Harman says Loki did not invite 8kun onto its open source network nor help build it.

        But some Loki staff may have advised 8kun administrators “to a limited extent”, he said, and provided some help to users hoping to access it.

        “Generally, if we get requests for technical information about our platform, we’ll just give it out. It’s all up open source anyway,” he said.

        “There’s definitely been interaction between 8chan users and the Lokinet team. I’m not going to say that that hasn’t occurred, but I don’t think it’s anything out of the ordinary.”

        https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2019-11-08/8chan-is-back-online-and-an-australian-startup-accidently-helped/11682438

        But I think all in all there isn’t clear intent here, so we’ll just have to see what the future brings.

        Good luck to your team and such.

        I’d like to host a router if there ever is a fork that doesn’t need the Oxen stake.