In each of the examples you have presented it is likely in the short to medium term (at least) they feel that their capitalist society of choice provides them materially greater benefit than the alternatives.
I think you’re right. Joining the US Navy despite “knowing the atrocities of the nation” is definitely a priority of his material interest. But I think it’s because he’s fallen for the idea that a capitalist society can have the interest of the working class in mind, because of the existence of FDR and the Nordic models of capitalism. However, I do not know if he is aware of the Nordic models getting their public sector privatized, with right winged politicians started to fill their parliament .
As westerners, or those who seek to become one, we in general benefit from the exploitation with the global south; we are on the wrong side of imperialism (from a global south perspective) and it is through this power dynamic we seek narratives that give license for our bigotries as westerners.
I do see that there is a material benefit for the average citizen in the imperial core to not thwart or question the MIC or western imperialism. I do know that some of the most vocal supporters of Nazi Germany were the petite bourgeois. I think I can see my BiL being aware that he materially benefits from western imperialism with the US government giving him disability for getting part of his toe blown off… Being active in trying to dismantle the system, or maybe even just questioning the system, could be seen as a direct negative to his material interests. Before knowing where my beliefs were, my wife had told him how I was becoming active in the political organizations. He said he was proud of me. And I can’t shake how much of a disappointment he is.
What we consider the modern west - child labour laws, pension, universal health care, materity leave, sick pay, womens rights, universal education etc all came following the October revolution that created the USSR.
I’ve told my BiL that without the USSR’s existence, women would not have gotten as many rights as they did in the US. His only response was just “no.” Western education always focuses on the deaths of a communist society, but never the advances in progressive ideals. Conversely, they don’t emphasize the deaths caused by western imperialism. That 100 mil death by communism lie can always be countered with 145 mil dead by British imperialism with colonizing India. But thinking that way continues to reinforce how western education emphasizes knowing history like bullet points, instead of knowing and explaining why, who, how. Once people start questioning why, they tend to move away from thinking capitalist ideology… unless they have no empathy **or ** they have a material interest.
A faction of the capital class in the west saw the accelerated development and accepted that they would need to invest in “human capital” to catch up - the most famous example is FDR’s New Deal. And started reversing these concessions with the fall of the USSR.
I think he just hasn’t gotten to the line of thinking that concessions can always be removed. Or he does know and just falls into the Great Men theory or class collaboration is possible.
They are not stupid. They intelligently seek narratives that gives them license to justify their bigotry. It is very difficult to convince them (though maybe not impossible) because you will need to give them an alternative where they will benefit within the short to medium time greater than what the current system offers them.
People can, and material benefit is absolutely one of them as to why they don’t. Some people just don’t think to try. I didn’t. Before my political descent from liberalism, I did have a conversation with my BiL that I couldn’t understand why there were people who were mourning Stalin’s death. I know there was more to the conversation, but all I can remember is him going on about how the famine of 1950s was due to communist thinking that plants can grow better collectively. I started shedding my liberalism when I came across r/ShitLiberalsSay. They emphasize and paint liberal talking points and thinking in a light I hadn’t thought to consider. It made me question what I knew and I sought out Liberalism by Losurdo.
Marxism is neither workerism nor populism. And I suspect while western communists try and fail to build mass movements based on scientific socialism the Global South will force the West’s material conditions as they increase the leverage, especially given the events of the past 2 years.
Wouldn’t this be a good argument as to Russia having an even higher chance of going back to socialism with the Russia - Ukraine war? Outside of the people who lived during the times of the USSR remembering their lives as much better before the restoration of capitalism, the reach of Russian imperialism is not as vast as western imperialism. Overthrowing capitalism should be easier in comparison to the other capitalist countries.
On a side note, am I wrong in thinking Russian imperialism is a thing? Russian capitalists have a material interest in removing the western backed politicians from Ukraine, not just for their safety from Nato, but also because the Maiden Revolution removed the Russian sympathetic / backed politicians and markets being sold to western capitalists.
Stop accusing the masses of being “brainwashed.” Stop treating them as cattle, stop attempting to rouse them into action by scolding them with exposure to “unpleasant truths.”
Accept instead that they have been avoiding those truths for a reason. You were able to break through the propaganda barrier, and so could they if they really wanted to. Many of these people see you as the fool, and in many cases not without reason.
Understanding people as intelligent beings, craft a political strategy that convincingly makes the case for why they and their lot are very likely to benefit from joining your political project. Not in some utopian infinite timescale, but soon.
These are all helpful for me in reevaluating my understanding of the workings of class society. I’ve been falling behind on my Marx and Engles reading
I’ll admit, I have a good job in the imperial core: software engineer. I engineer a website that helps companies estimate the parts needed for a construction job. Saying that out loud does make me question whether I fall in the labor aristocracy as the job isn’t blatantly benefiting the imperial core… Am I wrong where I stand in the class society? I do not own any capital, and I do not plan to own anything that can help me make money off of someone else’s labor.
I think I’m coming to the realization that I haven’t shed my liberalism fully. This line of thinking is starting to reek of idealism, and I think I understand incorrectly how early communists got to where they were logically. It is a material benefit for the proletariat to overthrow the bourgeois and take back the means of production. It is a material benefit to rid your country of western imperialists and help other countries do the same. I think outside of these reasonings, I sometimes have a hard time being convinced of the logical conclusions from those that had a beneficial job in Tsarist / Capitalist society such as Lenin and Castro being a lawyer in a bourgeois society.
As marxism-leninism has evolved over the years our understanding of the proleteriat vs bourgoisie dynamic has become more refined (as a science should); the bourgoisie of a peoples subjugated under colonisation could be part of the revolutionary national liberation struggle, the western proleteriat could engage in class collaboration against the global south proleteriat, capitalist countries could form part of the anti-imperialist block against US hegemony, immigrant proleteriat as part of Western supremacist assimilation could turn fascist against their own people from back home, women could turn against non-binary as they see self-validation in occupying the privileged space of the cis-white-man.
Given the above chances are us Westerners are MLs by serendipity. We are right to ask ourselves if we are labour aristocrats (a rule of thumb defnition I have come across that is useful is that labour aristocrats care about property value, especially when we consider the proleteriat were once considered the most revolutionary as they were propertyless) rather than simply “proleteriat” - it allows to better engage in class betrayal (ie labour aristocracy due to income and status align themselves effectively with the bourgoisie, and on the global stage against the global south proleteriat; it is a betrayal against this dynamic I want to highlight) where appropriate. And we need to study the successes of the Global South so we can learn their lessons.
(Regarding Russia: all capitalist countries given enough time will have to resort to imperialism. However, in this timeline imperialism currently primarily Western, significantly USAmerican, and given European and American aggression it has forced Russia’s hand to integrate more deeply a mutually sustainable development with the Global South. All capitalism will collapse given its internal contradictions and if it does in a way that does not end humanity then global socialism is inevitable.
Regarding socdem politics: their bottom line is to share the loot of imperialism more equitably)
I’m in awe
I think you’re right. Joining the US Navy despite “knowing the atrocities of the nation” is definitely a priority of his material interest. But I think it’s because he’s fallen for the idea that a capitalist society can have the interest of the working class in mind, because of the existence of FDR and the Nordic models of capitalism. However, I do not know if he is aware of the Nordic models getting their public sector privatized, with right winged politicians started to fill their parliament .
I do see that there is a material benefit for the average citizen in the imperial core to not thwart or question the MIC or western imperialism. I do know that some of the most vocal supporters of Nazi Germany were the petite bourgeois. I think I can see my BiL being aware that he materially benefits from western imperialism with the US government giving him disability for getting part of his toe blown off… Being active in trying to dismantle the system, or maybe even just questioning the system, could be seen as a direct negative to his material interests. Before knowing where my beliefs were, my wife had told him how I was becoming active in the political organizations. He said he was proud of me. And I can’t shake how much of a disappointment he is.
I’ve told my BiL that without the USSR’s existence, women would not have gotten as many rights as they did in the US. His only response was just “no.” Western education always focuses on the deaths of a communist society, but never the advances in progressive ideals. Conversely, they don’t emphasize the deaths caused by western imperialism. That 100 mil death by communism lie can always be countered with 145 mil dead by British imperialism with colonizing India. But thinking that way continues to reinforce how western education emphasizes knowing history like bullet points, instead of knowing and explaining why, who, how. Once people start questioning why, they tend to move away from thinking capitalist ideology… unless they have no empathy **or ** they have a material interest.
I think he just hasn’t gotten to the line of thinking that concessions can always be removed. Or he does know and just falls into the Great Men theory or class collaboration is possible.
People can, and material benefit is absolutely one of them as to why they don’t. Some people just don’t think to try. I didn’t. Before my political descent from liberalism, I did have a conversation with my BiL that I couldn’t understand why there were people who were mourning Stalin’s death. I know there was more to the conversation, but all I can remember is him going on about how the famine of 1950s was due to communist thinking that plants can grow better collectively. I started shedding my liberalism when I came across r/ShitLiberalsSay. They emphasize and paint liberal talking points and thinking in a light I hadn’t thought to consider. It made me question what I knew and I sought out Liberalism by Losurdo.
Wouldn’t this be a good argument as to Russia having an even higher chance of going back to socialism with the Russia - Ukraine war? Outside of the people who lived during the times of the USSR remembering their lives as much better before the restoration of capitalism, the reach of Russian imperialism is not as vast as western imperialism. Overthrowing capitalism should be easier in comparison to the other capitalist countries.
On a side note, am I wrong in thinking Russian imperialism is a thing? Russian capitalists have a material interest in removing the western backed politicians from Ukraine, not just for their safety from Nato, but also because the Maiden Revolution removed the Russian sympathetic / backed politicians and markets being sold to western capitalists.
These are all helpful for me in reevaluating my understanding of the workings of class society. I’ve been falling behind on my Marx and Engles reading
I’ll admit, I have a good job in the imperial core: software engineer. I engineer a website that helps companies estimate the parts needed for a construction job. Saying that out loud does make me question whether I fall in the labor aristocracy as the job isn’t blatantly benefiting the imperial core… Am I wrong where I stand in the class society? I do not own any capital, and I do not plan to own anything that can help me make money off of someone else’s labor.
I think I’m coming to the realization that I haven’t shed my liberalism fully. This line of thinking is starting to reek of idealism, and I think I understand incorrectly how early communists got to where they were logically. It is a material benefit for the proletariat to overthrow the bourgeois and take back the means of production. It is a material benefit to rid your country of western imperialists and help other countries do the same. I think outside of these reasonings, I sometimes have a hard time being convinced of the logical conclusions from those that had a beneficial job in Tsarist / Capitalist society such as Lenin and Castro being a lawyer in a bourgeois society.
Thank you for this conversation.
Thank you.
As marxism-leninism has evolved over the years our understanding of the proleteriat vs bourgoisie dynamic has become more refined (as a science should); the bourgoisie of a peoples subjugated under colonisation could be part of the revolutionary national liberation struggle, the western proleteriat could engage in class collaboration against the global south proleteriat, capitalist countries could form part of the anti-imperialist block against US hegemony, immigrant proleteriat as part of Western supremacist assimilation could turn fascist against their own people from back home, women could turn against non-binary as they see self-validation in occupying the privileged space of the cis-white-man.
Given the above chances are us Westerners are MLs by serendipity. We are right to ask ourselves if we are labour aristocrats (a rule of thumb defnition I have come across that is useful is that labour aristocrats care about property value, especially when we consider the proleteriat were once considered the most revolutionary as they were propertyless) rather than simply “proleteriat” - it allows to better engage in class betrayal (ie labour aristocracy due to income and status align themselves effectively with the bourgoisie, and on the global stage against the global south proleteriat; it is a betrayal against this dynamic I want to highlight) where appropriate. And we need to study the successes of the Global South so we can learn their lessons.
(Regarding Russia: all capitalist countries given enough time will have to resort to imperialism. However, in this timeline imperialism currently primarily Western, significantly USAmerican, and given European and American aggression it has forced Russia’s hand to integrate more deeply a mutually sustainable development with the Global South. All capitalism will collapse given its internal contradictions and if it does in a way that does not end humanity then global socialism is inevitable.
Regarding socdem politics: their bottom line is to share the loot of imperialism more equitably)