I’m always disgusted when I see projects centered on civil liberties who accept Paypal.
In particular, these organizations should be ashamed of using Paypal:
ACLU
EFF
Tor Project
FSF – they try to discourage Paypal with: “(not recommended: requires nonfree JavaScript)”, but really they shouldn’t be accepting it
Pinephone store – exclusively Paypal! You can’t buy a phone without it!
these projects need as much money as they can get, they can’t afford to lose such a source of revenue, can’t really blame them… what one can blame them for though is not accepting particular privacy payment methods…
correction: these projects need as much money as they can ethically get. When their mission is inherently ethical in nature, tossing out ethics (ethics of their own mission) defeats their own purpose and undermines their credibility. They’re subjecting unwitting donors to civil liberties abuses. You don’t do that to your supporters – the people trying to help out.
ACLU and EFF only need money from Americans, since they only benefit Americans. They must have US bank accounts to deposit the Paypal money into, and their US based donors also necessarily have US bank accounts. So check & ACH wire are inherently available. And in most cases credit card is also a common option for US-based donors & recipients. Adding Paypal is purely adding to the privacy abuse.
Tor Project are simply sellouts. They never turn down money. They’ve accepted donations from DDG and Reddit. Tor Project has a strong presence in the US and Germany. Nixing Paypal does not hinder conventional US or European payment methods. I’m not sure how much of their funding comes from Russia or Asia but at a very minimum they could restrict the Paypal option to the regions that need it. Note as well the Torproject accepts bitcoin and they do so in a manner that ironically subjects donors to a CloudFlare site (the top adversary of the Tor Project). They’re simply reckless.
FSF is essentially US-based and serving the US. FSFE covers Europe. Other regions benefit incidentally from FSF, FSFE,Protonmail, & Framasoft. In any case, they too could limit Paypal to non-US-EU payments.
correction: these projects need as much money as they can ethically get
I don’t think I can agree with that. Because otherwise they would have virtually no money at all, and thus shut down (see what happened when WikiLeaks when major payment providers blocked them), because, unfortunately, almost everyone uses those payment methods at the moment.
And if you think about the word ethical, what would you qualify as so? Are banks ethical? Of course not. Is cash ethical? No, but less unethical. I would argue that anything that interacts with US dollar is unethical. Then what do we have left? Bitcoin? 80 % of its hashrate is concentrated in China, and thus ultimately under it’s control. Etherium? Maybe… But if you count in the developer premine, the fact that the project is largely controlled by a single person etc etc, probably not so much.
As you can see, if you go far into trying to classify and accept only ethical donations, you end up with no money at all. And given that all their donation (at least from regular people) do not oblige them to anything at all, they should accept it. Accept anything they can get: money from banks, cash, PayPal, gold, money sent via pigeons etc, because ultimately the benefits from their actions far supersede the negative effects of contributing to the current broken financial system, accepting money from questionable sources etc etc.
Tor Project are simply sellouts. They never turn down money. They’ve accepted donations from DDG and Reddit.
I mean, their main sponsor by far is CIA, what else is here to say? If they suddenly only started accepting only ethical donations, then their major money supply (CIA) would disappear overnight, and given that they are (were at some point) responsible for way over half of all the money Tor got, this would kill Tor. And again, I think that the negative consequences of that would be huge, far worse than the fact of accepting questionable donations.
Nixing Paypal does not hinder conventional US or European payment methods.
I don’t have a bank account, nor do I have PayPal, so I’m not really sure about that, but from what I know it’s a lot more convenient to pay with PayPal than it is to pay from a traditional bank account. But again, not sure about this…
Torproject accepts bitcoin and they do so in a manner that ironically subjects donors to a CloudFlare site
lol what? How? I mean, you really only need to leave your Bitcoin address… that’s weird…
Because otherwise they would have virtually no money at all, and thus shut down
ACLU, EFF, & Tor all pre-date Paypal’s existence. No, they don’t “need” Paypal for survival.
(see what happened when WikiLeaks when major payment providers blocked them), because, unfortunately, almost everyone uses those payment methods at the moment.
This proves my point. Wikileaks was not just blocked by Paypal, it was blocked by credit cards as well. Despite the massive blockade, Wikileaks survived.
Paypal is the biggest offender of payment blockades (particularly political in nature and biased in favor of Peter Thiel’s right-wing agenda), which only advances the point that we have an ethical duty to shrink Paypal.
And if you think about the word ethical, what would you qualify as so?
By my own standard it’s unethical for any org or person to accept Paypal, but I’m not applying my own standards here in the context you’re replying to. I’m applying the standards of the orgs themselves. Paypal works against ACLU’s own mission. Paypal works against EFF’s own mission. Notice that I did not name countless vendors of electronics, bicycle parts, etc that accept Paypal, because Paypal doesn’t contradict their mission.
It’s one thing to hold everyone to your own standard, but if you can’t hold an organization to their own ethical principles something is wrong.
I mean, their main sponsor by far is CIA, what else is here to say?
First of all, the Navy invented Tor, so if you have a problem with a nation having an intelligence agency or military then you’re advocating against Tor’s creator.
There are countless free software projects that operate without a dime because people who need that software have an interest in contributing maintenance code. If Tor Project were to hypothetically get zero funding, you might see little or no outreach programs, Tor stickers, and marketing frills, but the software would live on.
I don’t have a bank account, nor do I have PayPal, so I’m not really sure about that, but from what I know it’s a lot more convenient to pay with PayPal than it is to pay from a traditional bank account. But again, not sure about this…
Convenience is the top rationalization for unethical conduct and transactions. It also has the least merit.
lol what? How? I mean, you really only need to leave your Bitcoin address… that’s weird…
Things have changed, so my comment is no longer relevant. In the past, Tor Project did not publish a BTC address. Donors were forced to go to a CloudFlare site and do the transaction through a 3rd party (bitpay.com). It was an absolute embarrassment for Tor Project and there was a long bug report about it. The bug report lingered for years but it seems to have been deleted– likely due to the embarrassment. They claimed that they could not simply let BTC enter because they need to make a tax declaration on what they receive, and the tax declaration must be in a national currency. So they used a 3rd party who instantly converted all their bitcoin donations into national currency for accounting purposes. They foolishly chose a CloudFlare site to do that. Seems to be history now. They are using btcpayserver.org and superficially i see no issues there.
It’s worth noting that Tor Project has a record of not eating their own dog food. Apart from subjecting ppl to CloudFlare sites, their bug tracker has a history of mistreating Tor users, and if you try to subscribe to their newsletter using an onion email address they can’t handle it.
I’m always disgusted when I see projects centered on civil liberties who accept Paypal. In particular, these organizations should be ashamed of using Paypal:
these projects need as much money as they can get, they can’t afford to lose such a source of revenue, can’t really blame them… what one can blame them for though is not accepting particular privacy payment methods…
correction: these projects need as much money as they can ethically get. When their mission is inherently ethical in nature, tossing out ethics (ethics of their own mission) defeats their own purpose and undermines their credibility. They’re subjecting unwitting donors to civil liberties abuses. You don’t do that to your supporters – the people trying to help out.
ACLU and EFF only need money from Americans, since they only benefit Americans. They must have US bank accounts to deposit the Paypal money into, and their US based donors also necessarily have US bank accounts. So check & ACH wire are inherently available. And in most cases credit card is also a common option for US-based donors & recipients. Adding Paypal is purely adding to the privacy abuse.
Tor Project are simply sellouts. They never turn down money. They’ve accepted donations from DDG and Reddit. Tor Project has a strong presence in the US and Germany. Nixing Paypal does not hinder conventional US or European payment methods. I’m not sure how much of their funding comes from Russia or Asia but at a very minimum they could restrict the Paypal option to the regions that need it. Note as well the Torproject accepts bitcoin and they do so in a manner that ironically subjects donors to a CloudFlare site (the top adversary of the Tor Project). They’re simply reckless.
FSF is essentially US-based and serving the US. FSFE covers Europe. Other regions benefit incidentally from FSF, FSFE,Protonmail, & Framasoft. In any case, they too could limit Paypal to non-US-EU payments.
I don’t think I can agree with that. Because otherwise they would have virtually no money at all, and thus shut down (see what happened when WikiLeaks when major payment providers blocked them), because, unfortunately, almost everyone uses those payment methods at the moment.
And if you think about the word ethical, what would you qualify as so? Are banks ethical? Of course not. Is cash ethical? No, but less unethical. I would argue that anything that interacts with US dollar is unethical. Then what do we have left? Bitcoin? 80 % of its hashrate is concentrated in China, and thus ultimately under it’s control. Etherium? Maybe… But if you count in the developer premine, the fact that the project is largely controlled by a single person etc etc, probably not so much.
As you can see, if you go far into trying to classify and accept only ethical donations, you end up with no money at all. And given that all their donation (at least from regular people) do not oblige them to anything at all, they should accept it. Accept anything they can get: money from banks, cash, PayPal, gold, money sent via pigeons etc, because ultimately the benefits from their actions far supersede the negative effects of contributing to the current broken financial system, accepting money from questionable sources etc etc.
I mean, their main sponsor by far is CIA, what else is here to say? If they suddenly only started accepting only ethical donations, then their major money supply (CIA) would disappear overnight, and given that they are (were at some point) responsible for way over half of all the money Tor got, this would kill Tor. And again, I think that the negative consequences of that would be huge, far worse than the fact of accepting questionable donations.
I don’t have a bank account, nor do I have PayPal, so I’m not really sure about that, but from what I know it’s a lot more convenient to pay with PayPal than it is to pay from a traditional bank account. But again, not sure about this…
lol what? How? I mean, you really only need to leave your Bitcoin address… that’s weird…
ACLU, EFF, & Tor all pre-date Paypal’s existence. No, they don’t “need” Paypal for survival.
This proves my point. Wikileaks was not just blocked by Paypal, it was blocked by credit cards as well. Despite the massive blockade, Wikileaks survived.
Paypal is the biggest offender of payment blockades (particularly political in nature and biased in favor of Peter Thiel’s right-wing agenda), which only advances the point that we have an ethical duty to shrink Paypal.
By my own standard it’s unethical for any org or person to accept Paypal, but I’m not applying my own standards here in the context you’re replying to. I’m applying the standards of the orgs themselves. Paypal works against ACLU’s own mission. Paypal works against EFF’s own mission. Notice that I did not name countless vendors of electronics, bicycle parts, etc that accept Paypal, because Paypal doesn’t contradict their mission.
It’s one thing to hold everyone to your own standard, but if you can’t hold an organization to their own ethical principles something is wrong.
First of all, the Navy invented Tor, so if you have a problem with a nation having an intelligence agency or military then you’re advocating against Tor’s creator.
There are countless free software projects that operate without a dime because people who need that software have an interest in contributing maintenance code. If Tor Project were to hypothetically get zero funding, you might see little or no outreach programs, Tor stickers, and marketing frills, but the software would live on.
Convenience is the top rationalization for unethical conduct and transactions. It also has the least merit.
Things have changed, so my comment is no longer relevant. In the past, Tor Project did not publish a BTC address. Donors were forced to go to a CloudFlare site and do the transaction through a 3rd party (bitpay.com). It was an absolute embarrassment for Tor Project and there was a long bug report about it. The bug report lingered for years but it seems to have been deleted– likely due to the embarrassment. They claimed that they could not simply let BTC enter because they need to make a tax declaration on what they receive, and the tax declaration must be in a national currency. So they used a 3rd party who instantly converted all their bitcoin donations into national currency for accounting purposes. They foolishly chose a CloudFlare site to do that. Seems to be history now. They are using btcpayserver.org and superficially i see no issues there.
It’s worth noting that Tor Project has a record of not eating their own dog food. Apart from subjecting ppl to CloudFlare sites, their bug tracker has a history of mistreating Tor users, and if you try to subscribe to their newsletter using an onion email address they can’t handle it.