Palestinians asking for a homeland. They are at home and have been invaded for over 70 years
What a bullshit and extremely simplistic take on the situation. As if they have been the victims here for 70 years.
Palestinians haven’t been the victims here? The ones being evicted and shot by illegal “settlers” for decades?
Exactly this. People are oversimplify the whole story. In my opinion there’s 2 camps of people who currently supports Palestine.
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They just don’t know the historical background and don’t know specifically -what- Hamas did the 7th, nor the huge support Hamas has in Palestine. (to clarify, A TERROR GROUP that has SUMMER CAMPS where they train kids to become terrorists).
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They support them because they enjoy jews getting killed.
Concidering how the rich arab countries has reacted during their neighbour’s times of need earlier: closing borders and not caring, group number 2 seems likely.
Just picture that the Palestinians actually celebrate Hamas terrorist attack, they feel joy over the actions many of us now have seen on videos and they celebrate it even in the streets in Western countries.
Imagine that 57% of Palestinians supports Hamas and 50% are against the idea of peace, 71% supports PIJ (Islamic Jihad), all while Biden won his election with 51%, Obama won with 53%, George Bush won in 1989 by 53%, last time any president got more votes than the support Hamas has in Palestine was in 1984, 39 years ago! Source about Palestinians support.
That’s how enormous the support of Hamas is, and some of ya’ll are defending them. You need to watch the videos released of the atrocities Hamas committed, see the actions that you’re defending, but I bet you don’t even have the stomachs for it.
What about the group that’s aware that Palestinians were forced out of their homes and have been forced to live in impoverished conditions for decades?
What about the group that recognizes the actions of both sides as being wrong and that neither side is “right”?
They’ll be ignored because all Israelis know what the state’s endgame is here and all its horrible implications.
There are many Israelis fighting hard to protect civilian lives, both in Gaza and the West Bank. You should look up B’Tselem. Quite a few of their activists got arrested over the last few days for peacefully protesting the bombing campaign.
Oh yes I’m not justifying israels expansion at all, israel isn’t some completely innocent toddler sitting in a corner. It’s however very interesting that you’re excusing the recorded actions that has showed up online though, the rape, the murders, the torture, the executions of whole families in their homes, because “israel also did bad!”.
I feel no empathy for those who affiliates themselves, supports, and/or celebrates it. Those actions regardless of the reason or source are absolutely fucking despicable. They specifically targetted civilians instead of soldiers, police, or people in the government. They went in to specifically kill anybody that couldn’t defend themselves simply for being jewish, and living in Israel. Watch the clips again and then tell me “Oh yeah well what about…”
Nobody is exusing anything. Shelling cities and blowing up residential buildings Is bad. So is raping and murdering civilians.
Most of us just want the violence to stop on both sides. Hamas was a side effect of Israel’s oppression. Same as most other terrorist groups and gangs. Everyone is doing awful things and it just needs to fucking stop.
Of course, war is hell and this will never end well for anybody. Check the statistics I linked though and you’ll find that 50% of Palestinians don’t want peace as long as israel exist. How would any sort of peace be established if half of the entire population is against it? The Jews and the Muslims have been in conflict with eachother over Jerusalem since the 1800’s. As Jewish people moved into the city at an increasing rate the Muslims and jews started murdering eachother. The atrocities have been aweful from both sides for soon 150 years, long before Israel even existed and sadly now after this terrorist attack, it will probably end up as “just Israel”… I hope any innocent civilian have the ability to get out of there before things really escalates.
However, to come back to my original point, you’ll never find compilations online of israelian soldiers doing the same things that the beloved Hamas did, and if they wouldve, you would never see Jewish people celebrate the rapes and murders of children and women.
Anybody here can say whatever they want, it’s beyond disgusting to see the amount of support and celebrations that was going on during the 7th october attack and the total lack of reaction from the rest of the world regarding it. Grow some fucking balls and condemn the celebrations. I’ll never have the urge to help anybody that approves of and/or celebrates the things shown in those videos.
Check the statistics I linked though and you’ll find that 50% of Palestinians don’t want peace as long as israel exist.
From your link:
Moreover, half (50%) agreed with the following proposal: “Hamas should stop calling for Israel’s destruction, and instead accept a permanent two-state solution based on the 1967 borders.”
That does not support your claim, because people were not asked about what you claim, and it’s grossly dishonest to suggest they answered based on your characterization.
The question is two-pronged, asking both whether Hamas should change their demands and then narrowing the possible solution down to one specific peace alternative that we know many Palestinians would be deeply unhappy with, given that it would mean substantial territorial concessions and might well also have been interpreted as largely giving up the very thorny right of return demand.
Nothing in this question asks people to agree or disagree to “peace as long as Israel exist”.
A more reasonable interpretation is that half of Gazans are support substantial concessions before even starting any negotiations by expressing support for a kind of peace that’d involve the Palestinian side giving up on big territorial claims from the outset.
When you misrepresent the numbers this way, why should anyone listen to you?
Your comments are rife with false dichotomies, strawmen, and general fabrications. If that’s what you need to make your points, you might want to look at your stance critically and ask yourself some hard questions.
Imagine that 57% of Palestinians supports Hamas
It’s cute when someone posts claims contradicted by their own source. The link actually says that “57% of Gazans express at least a somewhat positive opinion of Hamas”.
Consider that while Hamas is a terrorist organisation it also runs social programs, exactly to effectively buy this kind of support. For some poor family in Gaza struggling to survive it’s unsurprising that if given handouts by Hamas that some will express that kind of muted positive views even for a dictatorial regime that 70% of Gazans wants removed from power per the same link (see below).
To try to twist that into “supports” is victim-blaming of the worst sort.
Should we meanwhile talk about Israel, where there actually are regular elections and majorities keep voting in regimes that perpetuate an apartheid regime and commits gross crimes against humanity? Or is it only people in Gaza who are responsible for their governments actions, despite the fact that the majority of those of voting age in Gaza were not old enough to be part of the electorate that brought Hamas to power (in an election where they got a minority of votes).
some of ya’ll are defending them
Just like some are defending the mass murderous apartheid regime of Israel or try to implicate Palestinian civilians for actions they had no party in.
Meanwhile most of us think Hamas are terrorists but also recognise that Israel is an oppressive apartheid state and the only party with the power to actually end this, and yet is doubling down on crimes against humanity.
To focus on Hamas is deflection.
And plenty of Americans (probably around 50% given recent election results) would rejoice over any innocent civilian we killed in “the war on terror” and would defend war criminals in the US military. Would that make it okay to starve and bomb the entire population of the US? Is everyone in this country a war criminal?
Misinformation, stereotypes, and “Wuttabaut 'murica” galore! Truly hit the trifecta. Not really no, when war crimes have been brought up the general concensus has been jail. Don’t make shit up.
Famous examples are that navy seal “Eddie Gallagher” or the 4 blackwater guys that killed 14 civilians in 2007. They were all convicted, but made the big headlines with a huge backlash after Trump pardoned them, the absolute fucking bafoon… If clips surfaced of american soldiers comitting these actions, people would be outraged. Remember Guantanamo bay? There was a huge public backlash and push towards closing it from all sides, and there’s strong support for arguing “the war” was lost because the public turned against it.
Google “american soldier jailed afghanistan” and the list of links will just keep going page by page. You’ll never see any terrorist imprisoned in Palestine because of their involvement and participation in the 7th october. But yeah sure “WHAT ABOUT 'MURICANS?!?!?!”
How do you prove my point way better than I could, but still act like you made a point against me?
Like you say Trump pardoned them, and almost 50% of the country had no problem with that.
You mention guantanamo, but it’s still open and nobody cares.
And not to mention things like the Hague invasion act, where the US says it will literally invade Europe if the ICC tries to bring an American to court for war crimes. And most of the US doesn’t care, hell a lot fucking support that idea cuz 'murica.
And anyway you completely fucking misread my comment. I’m not saying palestine is innocent because America did bad things. Its not whattaboutism its me saying “what if this was happening to you”? What I’d some chud decided that it was fair to punish the whole USA because shitty people in your country have a lot of support.
That’s the point of the comment that you so conveniently ignored.
Mate, do you believe the people that voted for Trump supported them getting pardoned? Do you believe people went out on the streets to celebrate it? Have you heard ANYBODY call the pardons and their crimes good? Of course you haven’t. In Palestine, aswell as around the world by emigrated palestinians, the atrocities by hamas are celebrated and the terrorists that carried it out will never get put in court. They’re heroes in their eyes.
I gave you 2 famous examples that got famous because of how big the backlash was from pardoning war crimes, and your comeback automatically is “OH FAMOUS, 50% OF AMERICANS MUSTVE LOVE IT!”. You really have the worst take on everything don’t you.
Yes, people do care, a major part of Obama winning the election was his promise to close Guantanamo bay but the congress refused to let it happen. There is no support among the public for it, its hated by everyone, but the government refuse to close it.
Regarding the Hague invasion act, it was created as a tool that could quickly be used without going through congress, if a situation was serious enough to seem nessicary in order to protect and secure a fair trial of all appointed officials and military personnel in any criminal court of which USA is not a member. The ACTUAL name is “The American Service-Members’ Protection Act”. You’re actually trying to compare that, and USA that DO convict and punish their own war criminals when they catch them, with Palestine that celebrates them? Aight. Cool.
I understand the point you’re trying to make, but it’s just a terrible point because regardless of the situation I would be in, I WOULD NEVER CELEBRATE, SUPPORT, AND TAKE JOY OUT OF SEEING KIDS, WOMEN, AND INNOCENT CIVILIANS GETTING RAPED, TORTURED, AND EXECUTED BY A TERRORIST GROUP. Then we have absolute tools like you trying to minimize it 🤡
And on the topic of punishing the whole country, do you believe it was wrong to put punishing demands on Germany after WW2? Was it unfair to make the nation pay for the damages they’ve inflicted? Was it wrong to put trading embargos on entire Russia because Putin decided the war with Ukraine had to happen? Of course not.
If you think hating Palestinians is justified because of support for Hamas while they do terrible things, do you also think it is justified to hate Israel for the inhumanity the Israeli government (which has the support of the Israeli people) has perpetuated since Israel was brought into the region?
The last time any election was held in Gaza most of the people weren’t even old enough to vote. And despite your efforts to smear the people as bloodthirsty your own link says the majority did not want to break the cease fire.
The very same source also explains:
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Massive support for various terrorist groups
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50% of the population don’t want peace with Israel.
Think it’s hard to twist that into anything other than being bloodthirsty for Israeli blood.
Massive support for various terrorist groups, one of them reaching 74%
Firstly, they’ve not been asked whether they support them. If you’re going to link surveys, maybe don’t actively misrepresent what they say.
The very same link also shows 70% want the PA to take over power in Gaza. Some “support”.
50% of the population don’t want peace with Israel.
An occupied population has a legal right under international law to engage in armed resistance against their occupier, so why is this surprising? A brutally oppressive apartheid state engaged in extensive war crimes and crimes against humanity does not have a right to an expectation that the other side want peace when they continue that oppression.
If Israel shows that it is willing to take Palestinian concerns seriously and Palestinians still don’t want peace, then you’d have an argument. As it is, it’s grossly unjustified to demand of the Palestinian population that they should be ready to surrender.
Sure if you remove all context.
Can you blame em after being bombed and oppressed for 70 years?
Every single person there has never known a time of peace.
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If you have to lie to make your point, maybe you should reconsider how valid your point is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba?wprov=sfla1
This why Palestinians hate Israel, Israel literally destroyed their country.
Also pretty fucking rich to dig elections from 17 years ago where Israel supported Hamas to delegitimize other groups so people like you would be fooled.
It’s simple, don’t steal their houses, encroach on their land, fracture their community into an archipelago divided by walls, and put checkpoints every two miles, and restrict trade. Don’t do any of that, especially don’t do it while preaching about genocide and the holocaust and then asking for hand outs. Then I wouldn’t care, and might even support israel.
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Hamas are obviously fascistic, and they were voted in by Palestinians. Which means that IDF is being an antifascist in their current operations. Punch a nazi and all that.
Just to clarify, being antifascist necessitates being against fascism of all kinds, not just the ones who are your enemy.
Not to imply that the IDF are being fascist, but genocide is a likely outcome, whether ideologically intentional or incidental.
At the end of the day, this is a language game. Personally, I don’t care for the semantics of it all. I’m honestly quite anti-semantic.
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Turns out they can, you miserable anti-antifascist.
You forgot another important point: the absolute majority of Muslims will defend Palestine, no matter what they do. You risk being reprimanded in your Muslim community if you aren’t 100 % pro Palestine and often also when you aren’t pro Hamas. It has become part of their identity.
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I don’t think any right-thinking person has any sympathy for Hamas, and rightly so.
However, Palestinians are not automatically members of Hamas. This would be like saying you’re “done with” Americans and we should bomb every major American city because of the actions of the Proud Boys and other right-wing militias.
The support for hamas is 57% in palestine, Islamic Jihad has 71% support, people with Palestinian background are celebrating the executions, the rapes, and the murder of children on the streets in the western world even.
A more reasonable comparison would be to feel completely done with USA because of the republicans or democrats, but not even that compares since the support of both parties actually are lower than that of Hamas or Islamic Jihad in Palestine
Just a few things thats come up in Sweden in “support of palestine” after the 7th october attack.
Big number of cars driving up and down the streets honking and waving flags hours after the terrorist attack. In the comments people are discussing how big this demonstration was, and how several streets were completely shut off, aswell as some Danish commenters explaining how it was the same in Copenhagen.
The most important part of this is the support level. I have 2 points about this. First is that 43% of Palestinians in Gaza that don’t support Hamas are entitled to not be blown up or displaced, the second is that out of those 57% there’s a big difference between material support and just ticking a box in a poll. Does someone who says “Hitler did nothing wrong” deserve execution? I would argue they should be deplatformed, but not starved, tortured, shot and/or bombed.
And to add to that, these people did not say “Hamas did nothing wrong”. 58% said they saw Hamas as very or “somewhat” positive. This is an organisation who on one hand is a terrorist organisation, but who on the other hand operates social services. People living in deep poverty who are exposed to the social services aspect will naturally to some extent be willing to tick a box saying “somewhat positive” (38%, vs 20% “very positive”) for an organization who they personally have first-hand positive interactions with.
Despite that, and at the same time, the same survey also points out that 70% of the population in Gaza wants Hamas to give up separate armed units and hand power over the the Palestinian Authority, which should give some insight into how “somewhat positive” does not mean “agree with brutal terrorism against civilians” given that it in fact doesn’t even mean “thinks Hamas should stay in charge or have control of armed units”.
This person keeps grossly misrepresenting the level of support actually expressed.
Of course nobody ever deserves to get bombed, just the same as how nobody deserves what Hamas did to the Israelian civilians. My point is to address how disgusting and despicable the behavior of Palestinians are regarding the actions of Hamas, and how ridiculous it is that these behaviors aren’t getting called out.
Instead of worldwide demonstrations against israel and celebrations of what those poor civilians had to endure, perhaps it’s time for them to start demonstrating against Hamas. It’s really hard to feel any major sympathy when they show absolutely none towards the victims of the terrorist attack.
I wonder how many say they support Hamas out if fear of retaliation.
Why anyone is taking sides in this is just beyond me. They’re all literally terrible, both Hamas and the Israeli government.
It’s just Iraq all over again
I completely agree. Everyone wants a nice simple goodie vs baddie dynamic but that’s just not how it is.
Innocent people are being killed. I am pro-non-combatants-not-dying.
Frankly it’s bizarre that western countries are so supportive of Israel. Yes Israel needs to defend itself but I don’t think that requires the deaths of 5,000 mostly innocent Palestinians.
A radical idea: if “defending yourself” requires killing thousands of Innocent people, you do not, in fact, have a right to “defend yourself”.
I’m greatly worried the whole debacle is taking away much-needed attention from Ukraine.
Maybe. It seems like the same parties pulling the strings in the Ukraine / Russia Conflict are the parties pulling the strings in the Israel / Gaza conflict.
Oh definitely, agreed. I’m not siding with israel at all, I’m calling out how absolutely disgusting it is that people are coming to defense of these actions, and defending the worldspread celebrations of these deeds by the people who emigrated away from there.
That’s my position too. How can you celebrate in the street after a terrorist attacks like this ?
People will support anyone who fights their oppressors, whether the means used are moral or not. Since oppression and killing are immoral as well.
“We will fight with our oppressor using terrorism, which will guarantee us all further suffering and isolation. We will also fire unreliable missiles that sometimes kill our citizens. Support us!”
Yeah, I don’t think it’s okay to expect any sane person to support these guys.
What I do not understand is why the same doesn’t count for Israel? It’s founded by and for people who were oppressed and killed for much longer than Palestinians.
The support for hamas is 57% in palestine, Islamic Jihad has 71% support, people with Palestinian background are celebrating the executions, the rapes, and the murder of children on the streets in the western world even.
Holy shit, way to misrepresent an article. I urge anyone who thinks the above commenter had a good point to click through and at least read the headline of the article.
Ah yes let’s „be done“ with a whole group of people, that’s normal rhetoric 👍
Lost any sympathy with Palestinians
In other words… your sympathies always lay with the white supremacist settler-colonialist project and not their victims.
How is Israel a white supremacist settler-colonist? Do you know anything about Israel?
I guess you thought it a complete coincidence that all of Israel’s traditional supporters were countries that all had deep histories of white supremacism, antisemitism and colonialism, eh? France, Germany, the UK, Australia, Canada, Apartheid-era South Africa and, of course, the US - just a complete coincidence, right?
Israel has never been anything else.
Hamas isn’t Palestine.
Did you start hating all Germans once Hitler got into power? If you didn’t, that’s mighty hypocritical of you. If you did, that’s misguidedly racist as well.
No
Last drop in the bucket was how they dug up the water pipes that europe paid for, to make rockets out of them.
You sound so utterly clueless about the whole thing. And stupid to boot.
Ah yes, silly of me to be against humanitarian aid to be dug up and used as weapons by a terrorist group, extra silly since that terrorist group and their actions have a majority supported by their population.
What’s silly is that you lot consistently see the situation on its head. Either you don’t get what is going on, or you don’t want to tell the truth.
Hamas is what happens when you do to people what Israel does. It’s that simple. You cannot deprive an entire people of their dignity and commit atrocities for half a century and then complain when a section of them turns to violence. Anyone who suggests that is an idiot.
Can say the same about Israel. Israel is what happens when you commit atrocities against a people since about 586 BC.
Are we blaming Palestinians for everything that has happened to Jews over the last two and a half millennia?
The battle lines are being drawn in the court of public opinion. Now the question becomes how steadfast is the public support behind demanding a peaceful yet forceful resolution to this conflict and finally ending this apartheid regime.
How successful the court of public opinion has been in influencing the outcome of Israel conflict before?
Very. Israel has been on several benders that were curtailed due to international opinion. Unfortunately it’s never outrightly solved the issue.
Pretty effective. It’s backlash to Israel that has stopped Netanyahu from wiping palestine off the map.
It was successful against South African Apartheid. There’s a reason conservatives are trying to literally outlaw the BDS Israel movement. (Boycott, Divest, Sanction)
Israel is a small country that relies on the implicit assumption that Western countries will defend it if a large invasion ever comes to be. If they didn’t need some considerable international support, they would have ethnically cleansed the whole of Palestine already.
Imagine how angry and disappointed our ancestors would be knowing that the supposed chosen children of God literally got given their land after WW2, gave them sympathy, gave them diamonds and global support to promote love, peace and prosperity, then watched them literally turn and slaughter their brothers and sisters next door, make millions selling spyware tools and then carpet bomb hospitals because anyone can be a terrorist. Meanwhile Sweden has had literal gunmen attack youth campus.
Now imagine that you’re actually a hardcore supporter of a Jewish homeland, or Zionism so to speak, and then imagine that this is the hell your government has created and nobody in power could be bothered building a road or a school but depends on a million dollar empire in a faraway land to provide them billions of dollars of weaponry, guns, tanks etc while they claim the country is under 24-7 threat. When you really think about it it’s almost like if it was imaginary or true it wouldn’t matter, because dogma and paranoia overrides any sense of logic with these people, meanwhile they’re literally unironically spreading their little paranoia and fear by knowingly selling spyware to dictatorships to target “dissidents”
You could have been born yesterday, or be a hundred years old, and you would still have known where energy and LOVE has been squandered
the supposed chosen children of God literally got given their land after WW2, gave them sympathy, gave them diamonds and global support to promote love, peace and prosperity, then watched them literally turn and slaughter their brothers and sisters next door
Ignoring the borderline antisemitism there, in reality the people of the region were essentially abandoned by the West to fight it out. The Arab League didn’t like the results of the UN vote, and so riots broke out and the violence escalated into a war in which the Zionists were victorious against 7 Arab nations. To be clear, I’m not saying it was moral or ethical for the Zionists to settle land that was already inhabited by Arabs in the first place (it wasn’t), but that ship had long since sailed by 1948. My point is there was a very serious war over the land and no one was “given” anything. After the war, the Western powers agreed to enforce the 1949 armistice borders, and began supporting Israel materially because they were seen as a counterpoint to Soviet-Arab relations.
It follows that the point of support for Israel has never been “love, peace and prosperity”, but a geopolitical calculation, and one that has been wildly successful in maintaining Western hegemony in a region of the world that has never been particularly receptive to Western liberalism. Because of its geopolitical positioning, Israel is under constant threat, as evidenced by the Six Day War, two Intifadas, the bus & cafe bombings of the 90s & 00s, and the frequent rocket attacks of more recent times. Yes, they are under attack because they are unwelcome in the region due to their history of violence against native Arabs, but that doesn’t make the fear of Israelis irrational or paranoid - just hypocritical. It doesn’t justify the violence, but it does perpetuate it.
And so the clearest route to peace was through the normalization of relations between Israel and its Arab/Islamic neighbors, leading to a gradual detente and eventually a regional consensus. This latest flare-up of the conflict is a major setback in that effort, though, and speculatively, that aspect of it may be intentional on the part of Iran, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc.
And if support for Israel stops Palestine and countries like Iran will kill everyone they can in Israel and the country will be replaced by another extremist country lead by terrorists.
Public perception outside Israel has affected a total of 0 policy decisions in the country
I just want my country to stop knob slobbing these fucking fascists.
Because they keep getting money from the US. The US tap has to be turned off.
Um, actually… it currently IS turned off until the house gets it’s act together. Of course, the sink is filled to the brim with soap and plates, so it will be a while before the water runs out - but it will make the genocidal plate scrubbing of Gaza a bit harder without the tap turned on.
Israel is too important for the USA’s goals and stature in the area for public perception is the US to change the flow of money.
And in practise, Israel is not getting money but weapons systems, which is quite lucrative for the US
Peaceful yet forceful?
They probably mean forceful as in strong, not nonviolent. Like the world needs to band up and tell Israel to cut their shit out like they did to South Africa.
And I remember that Mandela died until one day I flicked on the telly and found out apparently not
I can’t remember what happened in South Africa. I was young and doing a lot of drugs then. Is it possible for this to end similarly?
I mean probably yes. What ended the Apartheid was immense pressure from the international community up to and including sanctions. That’s what the BSD movement aims to do, but it doesn’t have much steam right now.
What people seem to forget is that the international sanctions started AFTER violent actions are done by anti apartheid activists in South Africa. Such violent actions happened after what? Ding ding ding, the non violent protesting which ends in the deaths of the protesters. Fun fact, did you know Nelson Mandela is designated as a terrorist until 2008? And he got elected as South Africa president in 1994. There’s 14 years after he got democratically elected as a president that he’s still designated as a terrorist.
I condemn what Hamas did on October 7th, even if you read about Islam, there are actually rules of engagement in Islamic teachings. But after what happened during Great March of Return which is a peaceful protest done by Palestinians that resulted in IDF snipers killing peaceful Palestinians. What the fuck do you expect is going to happen after decades of occupation and humiliation? Do you want Palestinians to be a perfect victim? To just roll over and die? Just to let the apartheid state murder them and reduce their population to be so small that you feel bad about them because they can do nothing? Like what the US or Canada did to their indigenous population?
Look, if something like this happened to you, what are you going to do? Just roll over and let some dude from Brooklyn take your home?
My family’s home country is a country that got colonized by a lot of European countries, the Portuguese, the Spaniards, the Brits, even the Japanese got their turn colonizing my home country. And did you know what happened after we proclaimed our independence? Our colonizers came back and invaded us saying what we did is “illegal” and forced us to a bloody war of 4 years that cost more than 100,000 lives. If that kind of thing happened today, I bet you a billion dollars that the people who fought for their independence will be labeled as a terrorist.
Thanks.
Here’s a really great refresher on that exact topic from @Tony that I thought was really good if you’re interested.
Ah, I see. Thanks.
Israel is not an apartheid regime. That is silly.
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Remind me who gave Israelis the right to their homeland and international recognition of statehood again?
I vaguely remember it was given, just like how language was given to us. And it can all be taken away. Everything. All taken away and destroyed. Without mercy.
Israel has full political and military control of Palestinian land. They control every aspect of their lives. Remember when Jewish people where placed into ghettos and they each had different insignia that would indicate where they were from and were they could travel and what freedoms they had? Israel does the same thing with palestinians.
The battle lines are being drawn in the court of public opinion.
Fortunately, a misguided demonstration doesn’t dictate policy.
this apartheid regime.
Israel is obviously not an apartheid state.
According to Amnesty International, the world’s leading human rights organisation: “Israel imposes a system of oppression and domination against Palestinians across all areas under its control.” According to B’Tselem, the Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories: “The Israeli regime enacts in all the territory it controls an apartheid regime.”
Israel is no apartheid regime. Thats silly.
Give it a couple of years. Now that Hamas have upped the ante the whole thing will come to its logical conclusion. Netanyahu and the Israel military won’t stop until Israel will take over the entirety of former Palestine. Eventually it will become another South Africa, with non-Jewish people as second class citizens.
This is already in effect in Israeli territory but overlooked because there are still supposed to be independent Palestinian areas. When those are gone there will be no pretense anymore.
You would think they’d be a little less racist about things, but hey, these are the assholes who literally murdered Jesus hahaha
What does the ADL think of B’Tselem?
I’m not sure I give a fuck what either think, but it’s clearly not unbiased.
They’ve self described themselves as that in the past before term became criminalised in the early 2000s
It’s at least debatable and certainly not obvious.
Israel is very very obviously an apartheid state.
I’m from Bristol. Haven’t seen a single Israeli flag or show of support for Israel in this conflict, but I have seen loads of Palestinian flags waved around, and even witnessed a march last week.
I think public opinion has drastically changed in favour of Palestine.
I’d say we’re looking at a generalized propaganda failure here all across Europe and most of the world - ten years ago you were banned off any sizable English-language forum for calling Israel genocidal… that’s simply not the case any longer.
People have better access to information now.
I’d say that’s a big factor to it, yes. And it’s not just in regards to Israel - the people at the top had the information tap perfectly in hand until the internet came around to spoil all that. That’s why you see so many attempts to clamp down on the internet - everything from AI surveillance to Phony Stark taking a $44 billion hit to “fix” sites like Twitter.
Yet here they are, pretending Israel is genocidal
Israel has the support of powerful governments the world over, it doesn’t need the support of a hundred thousand marchers. This is why they get away with what they’ve done for decades.
Same as for South Africa, basically. Segregation started in 1908. Formal apartheid in 1948. Full on boycotts with government support late 1980’s, and 1990 the regime fell.
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Good, pity the people’s views are seldom represented in government
I think a large part of the issue is that the settlements themselves are actually a reflection of Israel failing to develop vertically. Even without picking a side, even if we ignore the ridiculous hypocrisy of Israel for selling literal spyware tools like Pegasus for the Saudis and other dictators to use on their own citizens and commit murder, the reality is that Israel’s current problem with terrorism is entirely of their own making, because they’ve funded settlements and wasted time and money when they’ve had more than 20 years since the Nakba, Fatah and had millions of dollars of US funding and done fuck all. Mate, you could be a hardcore Zionist and supporter of the state of Israel, and still think that they’ve done a shit job.
Bristol has a very left wing lean, I’ve seen the graffiti around. It’s a vocal minority. Public opinion is mainly indifference but condemnation of both sides, maybe a bit on Israel’s side right now. The way Hamas has conducted themselves I would argue has seriously damaged the perception of the Palestinian cause.
Idk about the public opinion but I’m not surprised that people are not publicly showing their support for Israel > if you look into the news people are getting stabbed for showing it.
My experience is the opposite.
I have a lot of Jewish friends and live in a place with a lot of Jewish people, and I see plenty who support Israel and have no problem being loud about their unequivocal support for Israels response. While the comments from my Jewish friends who don’t support the response have been much more muted. Except for one girl who is pretty pissed that her suffering from the attacks is being used to justify what she calls is atrocities against the civilians of Gaza. My neighbor even told me over drinks this weekend that he keeps his mouth shut about it because he fears the retaliation (primarily social) from his Jewish community about the fact that he strongly disagrees with Israel’s response.
Hmm interesting, my take is fuck the Hamas, fuck the Israeli government both have done horrible things (and no I won’t support one over the other because A is a tiny bit less horrible the B), I want the civilians on both sides to be able to live a peaceful live.
This is the way.
That’s not the reason.
The reason is because Israel decided to squander any good-will they had by launching a massively disproportionate attack. Public sympathy was with them for while.
You are getting downvoted but you are objectively correct. It only took a few days for Israel to squander any goodwill they had after the attack. And they’ve been squandering good will for decades. I grew up in a Jewish community and it’s amazing to see how fast they destroy sympathy for their cause, if I didn’t know any better I would think it’s self sabotage.
Fact that it’s even that close when there’s a lot of Western bias towards Israel and with how Muslims are often painted as terrorists by the media is a testament to how badly Israel fucked up.
Also that was before the videos of kids being murdered and traumatized started streaming in. Although MSM buries these because the UK is pretty much an Israeli proxy now.
Genuine question: How many, in term of proportion, if you can estimate, of the protesters are non-Muslim, or simply say white people/Chinese etc? I am saying this because they’re a lot of Muslims living near cities, especially London, Manchester and Birmingham. Having many muslims protesting for the Palestinians is no brainer, as they share the same values. It’s much more impactful if the protesters are consisted of many different religious demographics.
Nice job Londoners.
Looked to be a lot more than 100k to me
300,000 apparently
This is the best summary I could come up with:
The shipment of 20 trucks bringing medical supplies offered limited relief to Gaza’s 2.3 million population, under fire and with barely anything to eat or drink.
The home secretary, Suella Braverman, has previously labelled the slogan antisemitic and claimed that it is “widely understood” to call for the destruction of Israel.
A small group of protesters held a separate demonstration in central London on Saturday in which a large banner read, “Muslim armies, rescue the people of Palestine.”
The Met said it was deploying 1,000 officers to police the demonstration, as well as mounting extra patrols around synagogues and places of worship following a 1,350% increase in hate crimes against Jewish people and a 140% rise in Islamophobic incidents.
The Met said there had been “pockets of disorder and some instances of hate speech” in the series of vigils, protests and public gatherings, but that most had “been lawful and taken place without incident”.
In Australia, thousands marched through central Sydney after police gave the event the green light, and rallies were also held in Perth, Hobart and Brisbane.
The original article contains 666 words, the summary contains 179 words. Saved 73%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
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So how, exact, do you see the process of making Israel not exist proceeding? Genuinely, I’m curious. Do you really see absolutely no way for a state of Israel to exist in some fashion without the genocide of Palestinians? If not, then what exactly are you proposing?
Removed. I’ll try to make this as simple to understand as possible… You can’t advocate against the genocide of a people by promoting the genocide of another people. I don’t care if the argument is “Palestinians need to die so Israel can exist.” Or “Israel needs to die so Palestinians can exist.” Neither view is acceptable.
Israel is not a people. It’s a genocidal fascist neocolony. Palestine needs to be decolonized. I’m not advocating for the genocide of French people when I’m saying that Algeria needs to be free. The same applies to Palestine.
Hardly surprised, the tube outlet right under parliament had pro palestinian posters last I was there
Serious question: would this be historically considered Casus Belli for Israel to declare war against the UK?
Fuck Israel.
Well, the Israeli government, anyway.
I mean, how is the democracy in Israel?
I hear the media is somewhat free there
Israelis should’ve taken some action the past years
Aka “I don’t care who vowed to do terrorism, fuck those who dare to respond to it”
Which side are you referring to?
Terrorism is being done by hamas.
Among others.
Yeah. When you attack buildings that fire rockets at you, this is not terrorism.
What is the point of these protests?
The most charitable view:
To show western governments that the population doesn’t just blindly side with the Israeli government. A major difference between the two sides who are committing heinous acts, is that one side is a government committing genocide, and the other is a military organization (not the government) which was made in response to being forcibly expelled from their land by that government.
Neither side should be killing innocent civilians, but we should not be collectively taking Israel’s side, like is traditionally done.The least charitable view:
Because people want to get away with yelling Nazi-shit in public.To say that Israelis aren’t the only people needing protection.
Mostly to vent out anti-Semitic frustration in a way that is politically viable
Don’t confuse criticism of the Israeli government with anti-semitism. Otherwise you’re just saying “Israel can do no wrong, even if they’re doing war crimes.”
Maybe if terrorists didn’t hide behind human shields, Israel would’ve been accused of far less war crimes. Grabbing a toddler after setting off a bomb and murdering a crowd is basically Hamas’ strategy.
Maybe if Israel hadn’t been doing everything they could to drive Palestinians from their land for decades they wouldn’t have helped grow these terrorist groups that are lashing out at them.
Do we know who actually fired the first shot back in 1948? The UN shat on the Palestinians by giving half their land to Israel, clearly neither side was happy about it, but who shot first? It’s been tit for tat ever since, and clearly the Palestinians have come off far worse.
Tit for tat ever since… with Israel receiving plenty of international support and an Iron Curtain supplied by the US.
It doesn’t matter if Mike and Steve have been going at each other since Elementary school. If Mike grows up to be Mike Tyson and Steve grows up to be an accountant, then Mike is the bigger asshole if he keeps coming around to punch Steve in the face, and screams “See? He deserves it! Both Sides!” if Steve gets lucky sucker punch in on occasion.
All I see from you is pro terrorist bullshit. Fuck Hamas and I hope Israel kills every Hamas sack of shit out there. Hamas at this point could do the right thing and surrender, and spare the civilians, but they’re too cowardly to do that.
All you see from me is Anti Israeli Government bullshit. When the Israeli government spends decades committing crimes against humanity the end result is not a surprise. When no one listens to the suffering of Palestinians what options are they left with?
I call bullshit, on several fronts with what you said. Decades of crimes against humanity is unsubstantiated. What you call crimes against humanity is likely debatable at best and an outright lie at the worst. Hamas is a terrorist organization, and I agree with the sentiment that “Palestinians” are an invention from the last century. You have people who moved to the area under the Ottoman Empire, and the world decided back in 1947 that Israel shall again be a nation. When you have the despicable acts of the PLO and extremist organizations spring up from what appeared to be peaceful coexistence, this narrative about the light of Palestinians and the “freedom fighters” who cut infants’ heads off can go pound sand.
I don’t want the innocents harmed either, but I do believe Hamas must be exterminated. If that means flattening a building that they’re hiding in and using human shields, so be it. The people who support Hamas are making their bed, and we should not be surprised by the humanitarian crisis going on when the cowardly Hamas militants hide behind innocent families.
Exterminate Hamas, that’s my take on it. Don’t like it? Too fucking bad, it’s going to happen anyway and you can wring your lying hands all you want.
It’s not the criticism of Israel government that makes this antisemitism, but the utter lack of criticism of Hamas. You want a ceasefire? Start with demanding the release of the hostages and demand that Hamas stops shooting rockets at civilians.
Israel has been treating Palestinians like shit for decades. Surprise surprise that resulted in extremist groups forming.
Both Hamas and Israel are shit, but the important thing to remember is PALESTINIANS ARE NOT HAMAS. Commiting war crimes on Palestinians is unrelated to stopping Hamas.
You can’t put political pressure on a terrorist group to stop killing civilians, you can put political pressure on your government to stop supporting a government killing civilians.Israel needs to stop doing war crimes *and" Hamas needs to be dealt with as a terrorist group.
you can put political pressure on your government to stop supporting a government killing civilians.
What do you think Hamas is? They aren’t some random small terror organisation. They are the government of Gaza. So what’s stopping Palestinians from putting pressure on them?
Hamas needs to be dealt with as a terrorist group.
And how exactly do you think that’s supposed to work? You don’t like what Israel is doing, fine, what’s your alternative?
The UK is not supporting Hamas, so their is no point in protesting their support for Hamas. If you want to fly to Iran and protest their support of Hamas, that would make sense.
You don’t like what Israel is doing, fine, what’s your alternative?
To start with: not threatening to carpet bomb civilians just because they might get some members of Hamas as well. This one should be obvious.
K, you pointed out a not, how about what you would do? Go and shake Hamas’ hand and thank the for all the children they’ve butchered? Hamas needs exterminated, and I don’t see a way to deal with them when they hide behind human shields like the shitstained cowards they are.
“So what’s stopping Palestinians from putting pressure on them?”
What would you do if you were the Palestinian in this question. seriously. Hamas is not held an election since 2006 what would you do to put pressure on Hamas while you lived in the Gaza strip?
The answer to your question is lots of stuff is stopping the Palestinians from putting pressure on Hamas.
What would you do if you were the Palestinian in this question.
We are talking about a rally in London. All I expect is to see a few signs calling for the end of Hamas, an end to violence or something along the lines. All I see is “Free Palestine” signs, which is nothing more than an antisemitic dog whistle.
I’m not going to deny that antisemitism isn’t muddying these waters to some extent. Sadly, that’s always the case when Israel comes up.
But with regards to the treatment of Hamas in relation to the Israeli government, one is an ad hoc terrorist organisation, and the other is a functioning democracy with ties to west. Hamas is already considered a terrorist organisation, what more is there to do? I hate to use an Americanism, but they’re the “underdog” here. Israel is threatened, yes, but they have unprecedented control of the situation when compared to their aggressors.
PS EDIT not to deny that Israel has historically been an aggressor
one is an ad hoc terrorist organisation
Hamas is the democratically elected Gaza government.
The last vote was what almost 20 years ago? Before many of the people in Gaza were even of age, anyway. I’m not going to argue that Hamas doesn’t act as a de facto government of Gaza, but it is not remotely on the same level as Israel.
Israel has killed more Palestinians than Hamas has killed Israelis. Punished a population is a war crime. Israel should really know about this
Like the 500 in the hospital attack? For which there is no evidence nor was it caused by the IDF. Also keep in mind that plenty of those killed will have been Hamas. You are blindly trusting numbers giving out by a terrorist organisation.
Exactly,
and then HAMAS has to stop proclaiming the destruction of Israel.
Might help is Israel hadn’t been proclaiming the destruction of Palestinians for decades. Too late to go back and not do that, but they could stop doing it NOW.
Israel never proclaimed the destruction of Palestinians. Where did you get that?
Right, right, they just proclaimed Palestine doesn’t exist:
Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich delivered a speech in Paris saying the notion of a Palestinian people was artificial.
“There is no such thing as a Palestinian nation. There is no Palestinian history. There is no Palestinian language,” he said in France late Sunday. He spoke at a lectern draped with what appeared to be an image showing the map of Israel that included the occupied West Bank, Gaza and Jordan.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/no-such-thing-as-palestinian-people-top-israeli-minister-says
If someone claims a culture doesn’t exist at all, sure sounds like they want to wipe out that culture to people who understand that it does exist.
(I found this by simply searching “Israel statements on Palestine” and it was the 2nd link. The first link had plenty of examples of Israel’s war crimes, but no direct statements from Israel. )
Well if that isn’t the most outlandish illogical leap I’ve seen in a while…
Has anybody spotted signs of denouncing Hamas? All I see is “Free Palestine”. No mention of the genocidal act or the group that started this all. Makes it look like all Palestinians are in support of terrorism. I frankly lost all respect for them and their cause. It’s all “me me me” without any acknowledge of them themselves being a very large part of the problem.
Nobody is dying while protesting in LONDON.
Good refutation. It’s also a satrie page and just fits your stance so well that I thought you might enjoy it.
Whoooooosh.
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Pretty sure the Israelites taking over the grounds of Palestine happened before HAMAS ever existed.
Palestinians in Gaza have been mistreated for over a decade, they can only enter Israel during the day and have to come back by nightfall. Israel closed the border between Gaza and Egypt. People have been trapped in Gaza and treated like cattle for so long. They have been denied healthcare and basic needs. And the moment a few palestinians revolt against the oppression (even though killings by hamas are horrible), the world denounces palestine as a whole? Have you read about what Israel has been doing for the past decade or so? I think that in it’s core, it’s a fight for freedom. Hamas’ approach is absolutely terrifying, but palestinians can’t just stand and watch. How can you make sure your opinions reach the government when they don’t want to listen to you? That’s the entire point of religious conflicts, Israeli government hates palestinians for just existing. And you tell me that palestinians are supposed to sympathise with the killings in Israel, when Israel has done (and continues to do) atrocities on their people ten times as worse?
Was it horrible for british colonies to fight against the british empire? What would you think the narrative would be if Britain had a colony right now which was trying to revolt? What about everything that the US has done to destroy economies in the middle east, just to line the pockets of the rich? How is this not obvious?
I think that in it’s core, it’s a fight for freedom.
You must have drunken too much of the Hamas Cool-Aid.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter#Analysis
The original, 1988 version of the charter emphasize four main themes: [18]
- Destroying Israel and establishing an Islamic theocracy in Palestine is essential;[18]
- Unrestrained jihad is necessary to achieve this;[18]
- Negotiated resolutions of Jewish and Palestinian claims to the land are unacceptable;[18]
- Historical anti-semitic tropes that reinforce the goals.[18]
The Covenant proclaims that Israel will exist until Islam obliterates it, and jihad against Jews is required until Judgement Day. Compromise over the land is forbidden. The documents promote holy war as divinely ordained, reject political solutions, and call for instilling these views in children.[18]
Almost all freedom movements have extremists. The existence of extremists doesn’t justify oppressing innocent civilians. Focusing on Hamas is important, sure. But what’s a LOT more important is how Israel is (and has been) treating Palestinians. A complete disregard and lack of accountability for Israel’s actions while simultaneously asking the oppressed to condemn Hamas sounds a bit too insane to me.
There’s a reason why pro-palestine protestors do not talk about Hamas: they don’t support Hamas. But talking about Hamas takes the attention away from the crap that Israel has been putting Gaza through for more than a decade. Sure, both need to be heard. But right now, what’s not being done (and in fact, actively ignored) is talking about Israel’s actions: making it seem like a response to Hamas’ recent attacks even though it’s been happening for so long.
Hamas is not a random group of extremist, Hamas is the government that Gazans voted into power back in 2006.
And as always: If you have a better way to handle this, let us know. Everybody keeps complaining about Israel, ignores all the war crimes Hamas committed and provides no alternatives. Time machines don’t exists, so any “but Israel in the past blabla…” is rather useless.
I mean, it’s a religious conflict. There’s not going to be any satisfactory solution for both parties really. It’s still absolutely horrible that they resort to violence over this, both the israeli government and hamas are to blame for this, and as always, the ones caught in the crossfire are innocent civilians. However, if residents of Gaza were allowed to leave, most would flee anyway, despite it (possibly) being their land. Preventing that is something Israel is certainly to be blamed for. Of course, one can make an argument about terrorists escaping along with them, but yeah.
Also, just because you can’t change history doesn’t mean that you ignore it, but anyway.
- Nearly half of all Palestinians in Gaza hadn’t even been born then.
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Hamas is nothing in comparison to Israels crimes against the Palestinians.
LGBTQ people being pro-palestine might be the weirdest thing I’ve seen in a public demonstration.
Does pro-“the defense of the innocent” and pro-human rights make more sense to you.
Lesbians and Gays Support the Miners also received a lot of backlash from the British LGBT community for supporting a group that was stereotyped as homophobic and intolerant. And yet:
The alliances which the campaign forged between the lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) community and British labour groups proved to be an important turning point in the progression of LGBT matters in the United Kingdom. Miners’ labour groups began to support, endorse and participate in various gay pride events throughout the UK, including leading London’s Lesbian and Gay Pride parade in 1985. At the 1985 Labour Party conference in Bournemouth, a resolution committing the party to the support of LGBT rights passed, due to block voting support from the National Union of Mineworkers. The miners’ groups were also among the most outspoken allies of the LGBT community in the 1988 campaign against Section 28.
Yes, that does. I think they should read their Popper more carefully, though. I guess it feels to me a bit like what it feels to a leftist person when a poor person votes for neoliberal policies.
Didn’t know all those queers were moving to Palestine
And since it is illegal to be queer in Judaism as well, are they not allowed to take a side or voice their opinion?
It’s not illegal to be queer in Israel. Israel is not theocratic. Judaism, although differs to some degree, is on the more accepting part of the spectrum. It is also not illegal per se in Palestine as well but they often go to Israel to escape from very real threats from their family or the police. Israel is the only country where pride parade is held in the Middle East. Hamas, on the other hand, executes queer people very openly.
It’s difficult to separate information about Palestinian gays from the Israeli gay scene. Since Palestine is a very homophobic culture many Palestinian gays and lesbians are forced against their cultural and religious will to hide in Israel where homosexuality is much more acceptable and, indeed, protected. Three stories are presented here about gay living and loving in these two lands torn by tribal warfare.
From GlobalGayz.com
By many metrics, Israel is considered a trailblazer on LGBTQ issues. Openly gay Israelis have been permitted to serve in the military since the early 1990s, nearly two decades before the U.S. military formally permitted gays to serve openly.
From myjewishlearning.com
Can you guys just go back to reddit already?
They live in a country where they are abble to live a life in a more open and accepted way and can’t understand that the people they are standing up would beat them, stone them or kill them without hesitation.
So your solution is to kill all Muslims? If Nazi’s said something similar, would you agree with them?
Yeah I don’t even know but hey I guess it looks like a lot of people don’t like Benji much any more
A lot of people hate that the Hamas atrocities have been weaponized by Netanyahu and he is basically doing this war to escape scrutiny in Israel.
Why?
Do you also think the same about Ukraine, which is a pretty himophobic place?
I haven’t heard of LGBTQ people marching for Ukraine. But it seems to be at least officially bit different, since the official statements from Ukraine have been pro-LGBTQ rights since Zelenskyi became president. The people haven’t caught up yet, though, but they will if it goes like it went in Europe in the 90s. And it helps that they’re fighting Russia, who are anti-LGBTQ from the people to the government.
Can you provide any sources of members of the LGBTQ community being stoned to death in Ukraine?
Sure, the moment you can provide a source for me claiming that happens.
Since many of us left Reddit without any desire to give them traffic, could you please put a warning with your link?
Tbh I feel like this is a silly request.
No worries, I’ll just skip any links you post. Thanks.
Just add Reddit to any blocklists you use.
I think the fact that it starts with https://www.reddit.com is probably enough of a warning.
They inserted the link into text. By client doesn’t display the full address ever, but for reddit links it seems to just say (/comments/). I’m assuming this is a legacy of being a reddit app (Sync). I’m pretty sure Lemmy links show the exact same thing.
You are assuming a desktop browser and a mouse. Lots of us browse from a phone app.
I am using Eternity
ublock origin with Firefox? Pihole?
Seems like they’re trying to shoehorn their cause into another.
England 🤮
Are you OK?
Complete insanity to be a liberal western person and in that crowd, in my humble opinion.
Good thing no one cares about your opinion then.
Looks like you care enough to post a comment 😂
I care about him thinking other people care. I just dont care about his actual opinions.
Good thing no one cares about your opinion then.
Do you know what it would look like if that was true? It wouldn’t look like this.
Either way I don’t care
You know, you could just block me. Then we wouldn’t have to have this conversation. I guess I could just do it to you, but you haven’t really done anything to deserve that.
