• themeatbridge@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    “Jif” is the original pronunciation. It is a pun, a play on the word “jif” short for “jiffy” meaning a short amount of time, as in “I’ll send it to you in a gif”. The newer pronunciation has become popular based on the fallacious reasoning that an acronym should be pronounced the same as its constituent words, which isn’t a thing at all.

    Language evolves, and both pronunciations are common enough to be considered acceptable. The only way to be wrong about how to pronounce the word is to claim one of the pronunciations is wrong.

    • Doug [he/him]@midwest.social
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      1 year ago

      Become popular? It’s been popular roughly for the lifespan of the format. It’s hardly language’s fault the developer wanted to make an unfunny reference to a since forgotten peanut butter slogan.

      On the other hand linguistics indicate a hard g sound with the construction of the word, constituent words aside. Plenty of four letter words starting with the gi combo have a hard g, including but not limited to gift which you may notice is very similarly constructed.

      Whatever else the English language may throw at us, people appreciate consistency because we can make some sense of the world. A hard g is the consistent, predictable, sensible choice for the limited availability of those virtues English offers.

      • boothin@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        There exists other words that start with gi but use the soft g, gin for example. But regardless, the pronunciation of one word is not determined by the pronunciation of other unrelated words.

        • elvith@feddit.de
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          1 year ago

          But regardless, the pronunciation of one word is not determined by the pronunciation of other unrelated words.

          In English? Yes. In other, more structured and sane languages? No.

      • imalemmy@iusearchlinux.fyi
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        1 year ago

        an unfunny reference to a since forgotten peanut butter slogan.

        Yep. Jiffy is only used for peanut butter. Great point!

        • Doug [he/him]@midwest.social
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          1 year ago

          You can find plenty of places where the claim is that it’s a soft g because “choosey devs choose gif”.

          Where jiffy is used is irrelevant in that case.

      • can@sh.itjust.works
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        1 year ago

        It’s been popular in use but casual everyday people weren’t always bringing them up in conversation.

        English is not consistent, accept that. You can say gif but I’ll continue to call it gif.

        • assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          English is not consistent, accept that.

          This is the real answer. Both are correct and that’s that. It can be gif as in image, or gif as in graphic.

        • Dark Arc@social.packetloss.gg
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          1 year ago

          English is not consistent, accept that. You can say gif but I’ll continue to call it gif.

          That doesn’t mean we have an ehxcuse to haje jt worse

          • can@sh.itjust.works
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            1 year ago

            I’ve been saying gif with a soft g for over twenty years. Telling me not to is what makes English worse. As far I’m concerned both pronunciations are valid.

            • Doug [he/him]@midwest.social
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              1 year ago

              Telling me not to is what makes English worse.

              In your opinion. “Jiggawatt” is not a common English pronunciation outside of back to the future references at this point. People mostly settled on one over the other because it makes sense to pronounce a word a similar way to be more easily understood. It’s not always the case, sure, but I think you’ll find multiple pronunciations are the exception, not the rule. That’s why you can come up with a good handful of such words, but you’ll be using words with single pronunciations to talk about them.

    • redcalcium@lemmy.institute
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      1 year ago

      The approximately equal amount of upvotes and downvotes this comment received pretty much sums up the entire gif wars.

    • merc@sh.itjust.works
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      1 year ago

      The newer pronunciation has become popular based on

      The newer pronunciation has become popular based on their internalization of the obscure patterns of English pronunciation, informed by the most similar word: “gift” which uses a hard g. Everyone I know of started saying it with a hard g because that’s what made sense based on the spelling, long before hearing the weird thing about constituent words.

      Nobody pronounced LASER as Lah-seer, which you’d have to do if you used “A as in Amplification” an “E as in Emission”.

      • themeatbridge@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        OK but there are other similar words that start with gi like giraffe and gigolo, but really that’s not why I or anyone I knew in the 90s started using the soft g to say “gif.” We did so because we learned about the format, and said “Neat, what’s it called?” and they said “it’s called a gif” because that was the name of the format. We didn’t debate the pronunciation because it had been given a name, the same way you don’t ask a person you just met “Shouldn’t ‘Bob’ be pronounced with a long ‘o’ like the very similar name ‘Job’? I’m going to call you ‘Bobe’ because that makes more sense to me.” You’d have to be a massive douche to say that out loud to a person who had just introduced themselves.

        If someone said it with the hard “g” we just nodded and went about our day because it doesn’t matter, we knew what they probably meant and they just hadn’t read the manual.

        Pronunciations change over time, and that’s good. Language is a function of communication, and better communication is what enabled humans to transfer knowledge. If someone uses the soft g, you know the word they’re saying, and I know you’re probably not saying the word “gift” from context. We’re communicating either way, and we don’t have to pronounce every word the same.

        Case in point, I don’t say “emission” with a long “e” sound, I say “ehmission” because it doesn’t matter that much.

        The only way to be wrong is to claim that someone else is saying it wrong.

        • merc@sh.itjust.works
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          1 year ago

          “Neat, what’s it called?” and they said “it’s called a gif”

          Yeah, and then we all assumed it was pronounced “gif” not “jif” because the only other word with the letters “gif” was “gift” and that had a hard g. Later on, someone claimed it was supposed to be pronounced “jif”, but we all laughed at that idea and kept using the correct pronunciation.

          We didn’t debate the pronunciation because it had been given a name

          Neither did we, it was a hard g. There was no debate. Sure, some people claimed it was supposed to be a soft g, but we all laughed at that idea because it was ridiculous.

          We didn’t debate the pronunciation because it had been given a name, the same way you don’t ask a person you just met “Shouldn’t ‘Bob’ be pronounced with a long ‘o’ like the very similar name ‘Job’?

          I’m guessing you’re not multilingual then, because I am, and it’s extremely common to change how someone’s name is pronounced. People with the name “David” who are French are used to the French pronunciation of their name being “Dah-veed” but in English “Day-vid”. French people pronounce “Bob” as “Bub”. It’s good to allow people to slightly change how your name is pronounced because it flows better in their language. If they have to pause every time your name comes up to adapt how it’s said, it just makes things more difficult.

          As for “gif”, if someone pronounced it as “jif”, we giggled a bit, but that’s it. It was only if someone was really insistent that it had to be a soft g that we really laughed. Some people tried to claim that the creator of the format had wanted a certain pronunciation, but we knew that didn’t matter.

          Language is a function of communication, and better communication is what enabled humans to transfer knowledge

          Exactly, and part of good communication is good pronunciation, because if you mispronounce things it makes it harder for people to understand you. If you insist on using a nonsensical pronunciation then you’re just trying to make it hard to communicate with you.

          • force@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            That is the most anti-linguistic take ever lmao. There is no such thing as an objectively correct pronunciation, both pronunciations of “gif” are valid in the context of most English conversations.

            On another note, the guy who created it said it’s pronounced /dʒÉȘf/, so if any pronunciation is more “correct” it’s the one you hate. It’s not “some people tried to claim”, that’s what it actually is “correctly” pronounced like according to the only one that can come close to being considered an authority on what the correct pronunciation is.

            Your comment being so pretentious and stuck-up about you not liking a pronunciation leads me to believe you’re making the whole “we” thing up, and instead of a group of people being dumbasses and laughing at a correct pronunciation, it was just one person (you) malding about it in their head. Because being the kind of person to actually laugh at something like that in real life, face to face, would be too embarrassing for anyone to actually go through with it. God even just reading your comment makes me feel like I’m looking at made-up Reddit stories again


            Also how people speaking other languages handle names doesn’t have anything to do with this, there’s a big difference between calling someone “wrong” for pronouncing a loanword differently than in the parent language because of the languages’ phonetics & phonotactics not aligning with each other, and insisting that everyone else is “wrong” because their completely linguistically valid, common pronunciation challenges your understanding of the language.

            Oxford uses /dʒÉȘf/ as the primary pronunciation with /gif/ as the secondary in most of their resources (although a lot don’t specify a primary or secondary), Dictionary.com lists /dʒÉȘf/ as the primary pronunciation, some like Merriam-Webster list both equally, Cambridge less consistent but list both. Clearly the people who’s job is language disagree with you, even if you don’t want to ask for linguists to tell you, they literally make the language references you use. If you want to be stubborn and insist on being wrong, so be it.

            You can now continue malding about the fact that you use the incorrect pronunciation for the rest of your life, since apparently that’s how you see language.

            • merc@sh.itjust.works
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              1 year ago

              There is no such thing as an objectively correct pronunciation

              But, there are patterns to the language and using a soft “g” sound doesn’t follow those patterns, so it’s objectively a less correct pronunciation.

              the guy who created it

              Who cares about that guy? He made a mistake, he should have looked up how words are pronounced before trying to get people to mispronounce “gif”. If he’d said it was supposed to be pronounced “dug” people would have just ignored him, but his attempt wasn’t that absurd, it was just slightly wrong, so not everyone ignored him the way they should have.

              instead of a group of people being dumbasses and laughing at a correct pronunciation

              It really sounds like you didn’t have friends. The rest of us did.

              Also how people speaking other languages handle names doesn’t have anything to do with this

              Of course it does. How you pronounce things depends on the language you use. How people pronounce the letters “gif” is based on their language. In English, it’s a hard g.

              • force@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                But, there are patterns to the language and using a soft “g” sound doesn’t follow those patterns, so it’s objectively a less correct pronunciation.

                Who makes these mystical “rules” that English surely follows? And who says the patterns you see are objectively more correct, there are a ton of other words with “g”/“gi” that pronounce it with a /dʒ/, you have to do some real mental gymnastics to justify one of them being more correct. There is a point where you have to paint a massively arbitrary line to which patterns are more “correct”, it is a completely subjective matter.

                Who cares about that guy?

                He’s the only one that can be considered an authority on how the word is pronounced LMAO.

                He made a mistake, he should have looked up how words are pronounced before trying to get people to mispronounce “gif”.

                Pronunciation isn’t based on spelling, it’s the other way around. Writing is a tool made to accomodate language, and said writing isn’t a pronunciation guide. You’re lobotomized if you think otherwise, especially in English. But regardless, see below.

                If he’d said it was supposed to be pronounced “dug” people would have just ignored him, but his attempt wasn’t that absurd, it was just slightly wrong, so not everyone ignored him the way they should have.

                But he didn’t pronounce it like “dug”. He pronounced it consistently with another common 3-letter word “gin”. Is “gin” wrong now? You can cope with being wrong all you want, but it doesn’t make you less wrong.

                It really sounds like you didn’t have friends. The rest of us did.

                Yeah no that writing reads like a fake Reddit story, I refuse to believe even the dumbest teenagers would act like that.

                Of course it does. How you pronounce things depends on the language you use. How people pronounce the letters “gif” is based on their language. In English, it’s a hard g.

                The English writing system isn’t the English language, and the English writing system isn’t consistent enough to make estimations for a pronunciation like that. The only two words in the language that contain “gif” are “gift” and “fungiform”, plus derivatives of course, the latter of which is generally, by standard, pronounced with a /dʒ/ sound. If you think that’s enough basis to go off of to make rules for every other word containing “gif”, and then insist that your pronunciation is “correct”, that’s a you problem.

                The same goes for any language – German has mostly-consistent generalized spelling conventions for the language that approximate pronunciation, but a LOT of common words break this convention, including “guken”, “orange”, the ending “-ig”, “toilette”, “vase”, etc. which are pronounced differently than their spelling would lead you to believe. In fact it is most common for Fremdwörter & Lehnwörter to not be spelled typically. Is every German speaker pronouncing those words wrong now? What about Italian languages, which often do the same thing but significantly more? You can look at less and less standardized languages that contain more and more irregularities, until you get to a language like English and see that the “irregularities” in the writing system completely outweigh any actual “regularities” you see and it becomes completely pointless to try to enforce a pronunciation based on a certain spelling. It’s why people learning a language like English or Tibetan or even Danish will have often cite the spelling as an extreme pain point (I can corroborate the first based on my experience teaching ESL), it is an inconsistent orthography where the spelling is almost entirely dependent on the etymology or something else, rather than any current pronunciation.

                It’s also convenient how you left out the entire part about the dictionaries. Almost as if that was a silver bullet for your flawed argument and you can’t acknowledge it because it would make you look too crazy. Because the people who are the most looked up on for “correct” language by most English speakers say you’re wrong. Hmmm.

                When you consider that a large number of words in English which are spelled the same have different pronunciations or are pronounced wildly phonemically differently by different speakers or in different dialects, like “minute”, “combat”, “perfect”, “read”, “bass”, “close”, “agape”, “object”, “sewer”, “wind”, “wound”
 “apricot”, “leisure”, “often”, “crayon”, “either”, “been”, “caramel”, “garage”, “yogurt”
 your argument about pronunciation based on “spelling rules” falls apart pretty quickly.

                Present your argument on how English works to any linguists or even anyone who has basic knowledge of linguistics and you’ll be laughed out of the room.

                • merc@sh.itjust.works
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                  1 year ago

                  He’s the only one that can be considered an authority on how the word is pronounced LMAO.

                  He’s just the guy who invented the software and coined a name for it, he has no authority over how that should be pronounced. If he came up with a ridiculous pronunciation (as he did) he should be laughed at and people should use a sensible pronunciation.

                  Pronunciation isn’t based on spelling

                  Of course it is. That’s how spelling works. In English it isn’t nearly 1:1 like other languages, but spelling is very strongly tied to how a word is pronounced.

                  the English writing system isn’t consistent enough to make estimations for a pronunciation like that

                  Yes, it is. That’s why people pronounce it with a hard “g”, because they’ve internalized the rules for spelling vs. pronunciation in English and know that those 3 letters in that order has a hard g.

                  are pronounced wildly phonemically differently

                  There are slight differences in pronunciation, not wild differences. The differences are so slight that normally you can understand the word someone is using in another dialect without difficulty. And, in every English dialect “gift” has a hard g, as does “gif”.

                  • force@lemmy.world
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                    1 year ago

                    Yeah you see you’ve omitted most of my argument because it’d be absurd to argue against. Including the part which I bolded specifically – the part about e.g. Oxford or Merriam-Webster completely disagreeing with you.

                    I already mentioned, there are plenty of words with “gi” that say it /dʒ/, including things that end in “-giform” (e.g. “spongiform”, “fungiform”) which has “gif” in it. That on its own disproves your point. You’d have to do some real mental gymnastics to justify it, like “gift is shorter” or “only words that start with gif count”, which is just grasping as straws making arbitrary lines. At that point I could just say “only 3 letter words count” or “gift doesn’t count because the syllable isn’t /gÉȘf/ but /gÉȘft/ with a consonant cluster, therefore it’s invalid, only things where “gif” represent a standalone syllable count” or something else. Oh and by the way, some dialects like West Country pronounce gift like it were spelled “yift”, because using a yod is the “original” pronunciation. Since your criteria seems to be if dialects pronounce it that way, that means I can go ahead and pronounce it like “yiff” and be correct in your eyes, no? Or, maybe, maybe, the “correct” pronunciation of a word is THE MANY WAYS WHICH GROUPS CAN BE OBSERVED PRONOUNCING IT rather than some arbitrary prescriptive “correct” way based on stupid and inconsistent arbitrarily made rules, and the idea of one being correct is completely subjectively defined and made up.

                    Also no, that’s not “how spelling works”, if it were then words like “gimbal” wouldn’t have 2 or more pronunciations (/dʒ/ vs /ÉĄ/ like in “ɡif”). Spelling is not tied to how language is pronounced, in English it’s roughly tied to how a few random Middle English to Early Modern English dialects spelled and pronounced it, which is extremely detached from how it’s pronounced today – most words used to have over a dozen spellings based on the writer and we created standards based off of multiple arbitrarily picked writing styles. You can pick out a few inconsistencies, but as I said the irregularities vastly outweigh the regularities. This is especially apparent when you look at words that contain strings like “gh”, “gi/ge/gy/ci/ce”, “oo”, actually anything at all with a vowel really.

                    And who are you to determine what a “slight” difference is? It’s all subjective. Someone with a thick welsh accent, or a rural southern Irish dialect, or who speaks Scottish English, or who has a thick north Indian accent, will have a hard time being understood by the average person who speaks e.g. an accent from the west coast US or Chicago. You can find many clips online where English MPs/politicians have a considerably hard time understanding Scottish people because of the linguistic differences.

                    By your logic, British people pronounce “schedule” wrong because they generally pronounce it starting with /ʃ/ (although both pronunciations are found and used), while Americans pronounce it with /sk/. I mean, who do they think they are, would you say “school” like that? Or “schematic”??? Or “schizophrenia”! They sound like those dirty Germans, pronouncing it differently than me
 and other words that contain “sch” but are pronounced differently don’t count because
 reasons? They’re way less common maybe? That’s how you sound right now.

                    In the same vain, most west Slovak speakers can understand Czech with little difficulty and vice versa. Actually Slovak speakers can interact with most slavic speakers to a good degree. By your logic, Slovak is correct Czech or Ukrainian, but Scottish English isn’t correct English. Hmmm


                    You are silly for thinking that your pronunciation is “the correct” pronunciation. Your pronunciation is just as absurd as any other. Also people pronounce it with /dʒ/ because it just makes sense, and it generally is more common in certain areas of the country, you’re acting like /gÉȘf/ is the pronunciation people first think when they see the word.

                    Also let’s use your logic on other acronyms. NASA – well clearly /né.sə/ is wronɡ, look at the other common word containing that sequence like “nasal”! Or how about LASER – well words like “eraser” and “chaser” disagree! Or yolo – “myology” and “embryology”. OSHA – “turboshaft” and “goshawk”. NATO– “senator”, “anatomy”, “urinatory”, “natoma”. How is GIF somehow the exception to not being consistent with pronunciation of words containing the same sequence of letters? Which by the way, as I pointed out with e.g. “spongiform”, it is, but even if you want to ignore that.

                    I don’t even care about you addressing the rest of my previous comment, I just want you to tell me, do you really think you know better than the dictionary folks? The people who’s job is basically deciding what is ““correct”” language? The prescriptive linguistic institutions?