• Mr Fish@lemmy.world
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    6 days ago

    OK, what else do you suggest? Not voting? That just speeds the process up. Voting for the small but much better option? In a FPTP voting system (like the American one that I assume you’re talking about), the spoiler effect means that’s as good as not voting.

    This is my issue with the leftist community in general, and especially the ml group. Because of idealism, they seem to ask for something that doesn’t exist and not accept anything else.

    • orcrist@lemm.ee
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      5 days ago

      I think you’re missing several things. First, if the phenomenon is accurate, and it is, then the burden is on you to figure out how to stop getting played. Don’t ask other people to solve your problems. Recognize your problems, and then work to solve them directly.

      Second, the spoiler effect doesn’t exist unless you’re in a swing state. But how many Americans were told that they have to vote for Harris or they’re supporting Trump, when in fact their state was nowhere close to 50/50 so realistically they could have voted for anyone?

      Third, there is no single leftist community. There are many different leftist communities that overlap and agree on various points. Also, you’re suggesting that leftists are idealist, but that’s not the truth. We all recognize the current situation, and we’re trying to make a better one, but you’re not. In other words, your cynicism has caused you to throw in the towel, and to accept the current reality as permanent, unchangeable, it sucks but there’s nothing you can do, and that’s certainly true if you believe it.

      • Mr Fish@lemmy.world
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        5 days ago

        then the burden is on you to figure out how to stop getting played. Don’t ask other people to solve your problems

        Sorry, but how the fuck did you get to that opinion? Sharing knowledge and ideas is how humanity thrives, but unless I’m misunderstanding you you’re saying that we should each individually find a solution to the problem we are all in together.

        the spoiler effect doesn’t exist unless you’re in a swing state

        The spoiler effect will always exist to some extent in any FPTP system. Sure, it won’t make nearly as much difference in a one sided state as it will in a swing state, but the effect still exists, and makes it much harder for a better party to gain traction while not losing a lot of ground in the mean time.

        how many Americans were told that they have to vote for Harris or they’re supporting Trump

        The people that didn’t believe this and so didn’t vote are probably the reason that Trump won the popular vote, and that the republicans have a majority in the senate and the house.

        you’re suggesting that leftists are idealist, but that’s not the truth

        Acting like “voting for the lesser evil is evil and therefore unacceptable” seems pretty idealist to me. I’m well aware that most people here are aware of how shit the world is, and are doing their part to improve it, which is something I appreciate and want to support. It’s just that from what I can tell, the recent US election was the wrong place for idealism.

        we’re trying to make a better one, but you’re not

        Sorry, mate, but don’t assume. I’m not american, I’m kiwi. And since we don’t have a completely shit voting system, I always vote as a huge idealist and never vote for one of the big two, because in MMP that’s not a wasted vote.

        your cynicism has caused you to throw in the towel, and to accept the current reality as permanent, unchangeable

        No. I’ve just accepted that, at least for this cycle of US elections, the better approach would be playing defensive. It’s not that the current reality is unchangeable, it’s that positive change will be very slow.

    • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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      5 days ago

      OK, what else do you suggest?

      I suggest that the party take the fucking hint and move to the left. But that’s not an option you will consider.

      • Mr Fish@lemmy.world
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        5 days ago

        That’s absolutely an option I would consider, but it’s not an option that 99% of people can actually act on.

        • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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          5 days ago

          Well, shouting at the electorate to shut up and love genocide because it’s the “lesser” evil didn’t work.

      • Mr Fish@lemmy.world
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        6 days ago

        As good as that video is, he ignores the strength elections have as damage control. Yes, large positive change needs the sort of efforts he’s describing, but ignoring voting means a bad government will have far more opportunity to undo progress.

        Really, the biggest takeaway from that video is that there are more tools than simply voting and protesting, which I don’t think anyone is disagreeing with.

        • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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          5 days ago

          As good as that video is, he ignores the strength elections have as damage control.

          Was supporting genocide “damage control?”

          • Mr Fish@lemmy.world
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            5 days ago

            Supporting the lesser evil is damage control. Yes, Harris is far from great, but Trump is far worse.

              • Mr Fish@lemmy.world
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                5 days ago

                That’s the question I answered.

                Which would you rather support?

                • Genocide
                • Genocide + fascism + other bad shit (probably including genocide 2)

                Pick one or give an alternative and a good reason that it will have some effect.

                The lesser evil in this situation is genocide without all the other shit, and supporting that is therefore damage control

                • BrainInABox@lemmy.ml
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                  4 days ago

                  When a non-evil person reaches the conclusion that a government is unavoidably committing genocide, there next thought is “how can we bring about the end of this government?”, not “how can I maintain the good times for me personally?”. But Democrats are callous psychopaths.

                  Also, it’s already fascism you ghoul.

                • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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                  5 days ago

                  Sorry, I thought I made it clear. What Biden did when he supported genocide for you is not “damage control” even though you love him for it.

                  • Mr Fish@lemmy.world
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                    4 days ago

                    A. Please tell me exactly where I said Biden was anything more than a mildly less shit alternative to Trump. And please tell me where I was saying support the genocide, rather than support one of the people who supports the genocide.

                    B. I have not been talking about what Biden should have done. I have only been talking about what voters should have done.

        • Prunebutt@slrpnk.net
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          6 days ago

          I don’t think you got the main point of the video. Not only “large” change needs these efforts. Any progressive change does. As soon as there is no pressure by mass movements, politicians will drift to strengthen their power, which means moving to the right.

          • deaf_fish@lemm.ee
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            5 days ago

            So the only way to keep and maintain a progressive government is to teleport from where we are now to the desired outcome? Is that the argument of the video?

            If so, that seems not currently feasible.

            • Prunebutt@slrpnk.net
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              5 days ago

              Maybe you should watch it, then you don’t have to ask such an ignorant question.

              • deaf_fish@lemm.ee
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                4 days ago

                Sounds like you aren’t clear on what that video is suggesting either. Why should I spend time to watch a video that no one seems to have understood?

                • Prunebutt@slrpnk.net
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                  4 days ago

                  I’m quite clear: electoral politics is merely a distraction for left/progressive forces. Rather, you should organize with your fellow exploited siblings and built opposing power structures from the bottom up.

                  He demands the opposite than wishful thinking, or “teleporting”.

                  • Charapaso@lemmy.world
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                    4 days ago

                    Is there a succinct way of articulating why we can’t do both? (e.g. vote for the lesser evil while also doing all the mutual aid and whatnot that we can?) Does it boil down to the argument that voting makes people less likely to build said alternative power structures?

                    I’ll watch the video when I have time, but communicating an actionable strategy I think is essential to folks in crisis.

                  • deaf_fish@lemm.ee
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                    4 days ago

                    Ok, so why not vote for the lesser evil then? It would increase the amount of time we have to organize without fascists cracking down on us.

    • ReadMoreBooks@lemmy.zip
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      5 days ago

      OK, what else do you suggest?

      Not many ask.

      Because of idealism, they seem to ask for something that doesn’t exist and not accept anything else.

      This is my issue with almost everyone. They believe they already know what others think, that no one could possibly have an alternative that they’ve not already considered.

      My suggestions are as follows: Consider that your scope of evaluation is only one cycle. As a consequence there may be nuance in system function that you’d not considered. Then ask the same question but in good faith.

      • Mr Fish@lemmy.world
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        5 days ago

        not many ask

        Yes, they do ask a lot, at least a far as I’ve seen. I still haven’t seen a good alternative to voting for the lesser evil in a FPTP system.

        They believe they already know what others think

        My opinion on that was based on the whole “don’t vote for Harris, she’ll support genocide” thing I saw earlier this year. If I’m wrong about that, or anything else, I’m more than happy to be corrected.

        no one could possibly have an alternative that they’ve not already considered

        Most people don’t think that no one could have a good alternative, they just don’t know of anyone who does.

        your scope of evaluation is only one cycle

        You’re assuming that’s my only scope. Both the short term and the long term are important, but from what I’ve seen the short term tends to get ignored in this sort of community.

          • meowMix2525@lemm.ee
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            4 days ago

            Sorry, mate, but don’t assume. I’m not american, I’m kiwi.

            They’re not even a citizen, they’re just here to spread anti-democratic voting propaganda from other fucking side of the ocean where they don’t have to deal with the effects or care about any actual causes.

        • ReadMoreBooks@lemmy.zip
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          5 days ago

          Do you simply have no answer, or are you withholding them so you can feel smug?

          false dichotomy