Edit2: It’s a subjective perception I’m talking about. Are you offended? Why?
What’s the matter, why can’t men deal with me being sensitive and emotional? Is it because they struggle with me reminding them of having, too, emotions?
Edit: Do men think I’m weak when I show emotions? If so, why?? Why do women see it as a sign of strength when men are vulnerable, but men don’t seem to get it? Are they/are we dumb??
Men are often socialized to believe that showing emotion is reserved for children, women, and the weak. They are often taught that emotions are in direct opposition to “strength” and “manliness”.
Unfortunately, if men show emotion, they are often criticized and made fun of (often by other men), calling their masculinity into question. As if having emotions make you weak or less of a man.
Emotions are not a “weak” trait. Emotions are a human trait.
Men need to work hard to be supportive and accepting of other men showing emotion. De- stigmatize emotional men. Stop showing sensitive men or men who struggle or cry as “weak” or worthy of mockery. This is such an antiquated view and needs to be abolished.
Support your bros. Become comfortable with emotional expression. This will help struggling men everywhere, I guarantee it.
Men show emotions all the time. The problem is that the only “acceptable” emotion is anger or resentment. People of any gender validate other peoples feelings based on their own experiences. Because women’s emotions are invalidated as weak or useless, women tend to be more sympathetic to others who experience that same invalidation.
That’s my point: anger is an “acceptable” emotion for men, because it often coincides with the masculine concept of strength.
The “weak” emotions, though, are not acceptable.
Which is why OP feels they are more openly able to show these emotions to women but not men.
“Did Jesus ever cry? No! And neither will I!”
John 11:35
Jesus wept.ThatsTheJoke.jpg
Oh, I didn’t get that 🙈
“But Daaaaad, I thought you were gonna save Me,” He cried. B&S 4:20:69
Plenty of men can deal with this, and plenty of women can’t. It’s not helpful to see this as a gender thing, you’ll only feel more alienated. You might want to seek out some new social connections?
Ignoring strong correlations because “not all” is less helpful.
Most men, in western society, have issues with expressing emotions other than anger. I’m certain I could find studies as proof, but don’t we all already know this to be true?
We do. Isn’t there currently an epidemic of men having to deal with a slew of mental health issues, not knowing what to do/how to deal with it?
Yeah. That.
You missed my point. I’m ignoring nothing, I’m suggesting OP seek out men who will be supportive, because they’re not hard to find.
I’m certain I could find studies as proof, but don’t we all already know this to be true?
Yeah. Provide studies.
Here’s one that cites multiple others right in the intro.
I picked the first three results from your search and they don’t support your argument at all. They even call it out as a stereotype (which it is).
Male leaders received lower effectiveness ratings when expressing sadness compared to neutrality, while female leaders received lower ratings when expressing either sadness or anger.
So sadness for leaders is neither ok for women or men.
Design: Questionnaires were administered to 41 women and 41 men using a cross-sectional study design.
Rather small sample size and the conclusion was very cautiously worded … so no facts that support your theory.
https://bpspsychub.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1348/135910703322370851
The analysis of emoticon (emotional icon) use in online newsgroups appears to reinforce the stereotype of the emotional female and the inexpressive male until further examination suggests otherwise. The most interesting finding of this study is illustrated by the pattern of change that develops for both genders when they move from a predominantly same gender newsgroup to a mixed-gender newsgroup. The changes that take place in emoticon use when moving from same-gender to mixed-gender newsgroups indicate that rather than the emotional expression of females being silenced or muted by male encoding of emoticons, males adopt the female standard of expressing more emotion. Furthermore, women have added dimensions including solidarity, support, assertion of positive feelings, and thanks, which were absent from the male-created definition of emoticons and their use.
No proof for your theory either.
https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/10949310050191809
I may come back and review some more of the literature, because it really is an interesting topic.
Your last citation there actually seems relevant to OP, since they’re asking about this difference in how they feel around other men vs in mixed groups.
It would be useful to know if there are indeed more studies like this that maybe show that the stereotype (which aren’t inherently wrong or negative) is too vague, and i would like to know the specifics, maybe the stereotype only holds in male-dominant spaces. Or (and I think I’ve read this) when males are primed to act more masculine.
Loaded question. Full of judgement, too.
Fair enough, it’s a subjective perception that I asked about
The answer to your subjective perception question then is… it’s probably reinforced by the people you associate with.
When I was young, most of my friends were girls because the guys were all trying to prove how manly they were. It’s a thing of emotional maturity. The trouble is that many guys don’t emotionally mature until after they’ve left school, and by that point they’re surrounded by other emotionally stunted men in the workplace and unhealthy behaviours are reinforced.
But that’s a stereotype too and depends on what they’re doing in the workforce.
For me, it meant that I have fewer man friends than woman friends, but the relationships are stronger with the ones I do have.
I don’t understand how people are upvoting this comment. Granted, this is online land, but OP made himself vulnerable asking this question which takes …emotional maturity. If you think it’s a loaded question of full of judgment then it’s on you to explain why that is so.
And yeah, it’s a bit loaded and a bit judgy, but it’s also brief and inclusive.
This is what is commonly referred to as “toxic masculinity”. That’s the crux of what they’re talking about. It’s not just that men are taught to be dangerous to those around them, it’s that we’re also taught to be hard and lonely Islands that seek no support.
It’s no way to live and it crushes you over time.
As opposed to masculinity. Look at Gilgamesh, Achelies, even the godfather of stoicism Marcus Arilius. Historically peak alpha males never muffled their emotions.
Every (good guy) male character in LoTR, especially Aragorn. All great examples of genuine masculinity.
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Not quite, I have a group of male friends who are very comfortable with being emotional with each other and I still prefer opening to women because they are much more concerned and able to deal with it, lot of men still don’t know what to do with it.
You’re still describing the effects of toxic masculinity, just the 2nd order effects rather than the first.
Why do you think a lot of men don’t know what to do with it? Why do you think a lot of men aren’t concerned?
It’s not some innate aspect of being a woman: it’s a suppressed aspect of being a human that society has pressed out of men.
They aren’t as used to talk about emotions and relationships so it’s easier to go with someone that is.
It’s no assumptions just facts
Yes. And the reason for that is toxic masculinity. That’s the point they were making. They were explaining the why, not the what.
I mean sure but if you want to look more in depth it’s not just toxic masculinity, there’s also toxic femininity involved most men have been hurt by their previous partner who they opened up to and their partner then used it against them or even ridiculed them in front of an audience. Or women around them mocked them for being emotional and crying
What you’re describing is still toxic masculinity and has absolutely nothing to do with toxic femininity. Men that have been hurt by their previous partners or ridiculed for being emotional, is toxic masculinity. This is because men are discouraged from expressing their emotions or seeking support, reinforcing the harmful stereotype that vulnerability is a sign of weakness. Men get hurt by women doing this because of the toxic view many men and women carry about masculinity and male gender roles.
Toxic femininity on the other hand, is a societal expectation placed on women to conform to traditional gender roles and stereotypes, like being passive, nurturing, and submissive.
Nope
Examples of Toxic Femininity
To identify toxic femininity, you need to know what to look out for to ensure they are not falling victim to toxic femininity guise as friendship or niceness by some women. The telltale signs include:
Slut-shaming and body-shaming – women who slut-shame or body shame others are toxic Talking over other people and belittling others, especially fellow women Making fun of another female to get the attention of a man. Shaming men for being too soft or having feminine traits that do not live up to societal expectations of what a man is. Passive aggression behavior can include patronizing behavior, fake niceties, and smiley faces after a harsh text. Sabotaging and backstabbing behavior like lying for their benefit, offering misleading advice, manipulating situations, and mocking others for their decisions. Resentment, jealousy, and bitterness towards others, especially fellow women, for their popularity, looks, and achievements Negative competitiveness with other women through dominance or sexuality
I don’t know your exact experiences, but I had a similar feeling in the past. However, recently I noticed it was a lot of how i behaved to them. I started speaking more openly with my male friends and noticed, they also value my emotions. The main difference was, that my friendships with women started on an emotional level making it a lot easier to open up for me. With my male friends, I needed to just say how i feel, which i have not dared for a long time. My own stereotypes probably played a larger role than the gender of the people involved.
However as others have said, if they do not take you seriously when you open up, they are bad friends. (Edit: Bad friends is a bit harsh, more like friends for having fun together, not to rely on. This is also nice even if it can be hard to accept)
Then you run into a full-blown narcissist and they will mistake your openness for weakness and start to weaponise it against you. Ask me how I know this.
They wouldn’t be bad friends out of malice though, that’s a bit harsh
Yep. And it’s really liberating once you become comfortable plainly sharing your emotions about things with other men. I didn’t even realize I was keeping things in until I stopped keeping things in. I think it’s helped my relationship with my wife too, just by building better habits around isolating and speaking my emotional reaction to things.
Sounds like you hang out with childish “men” (boys) and emotionally intelligent women.
There have been plenty of times in my life where showing emotions to women was the wrong move. On the other hand, the friend of mine that I consider the most emotionally mature is a man.
Toxic patterns get passed on due to resentment, often. It’s not like they wanted to have to suppress their emotions, but they were taught to. The idea people don’t have to anymore itches some people in a weird way.
Like, pretend you joined a club that had an initiation that was really painful, and it happened every year. Tradition. Now imagine that started to change, and you yourself were from that last year that ever had to do it. Now everyone who joins doesn’t have to. That could breed resentment for those new people and that new system, if you let it.
Yeah, I guess that change would confuse the hell out of me …
and I guess I recognize that kind of resentment, like “why/how the hell is him able to be so vulnerable and I not?” That makes so much sense but it’s crazy confusing to me still
So, it may be that men resent me for my ability to be vulnerable?! Damn wtf
It definitely can get weird. All the self-reflection that helps you see it requires some sensitivity too, so never learning that sensitivity can partially prevent you from ever fully acquiring it, dropping those guys into a sort of trap that would be hard for anyone to escape.
I am eternally grateful to Fred Rogers for teaching me many different ways of seeing situations while I was young enough to still believe in him, which helped avoid this trap. Once I got old enough to think for myself, I could look back and choose for myself. I had options to choose from, instead of just my own local culture.
Man a lot of people are chalking this up to just the individuals being assholes, but there’s absolutely a societal expectation to men being stoic, and that’s hard to break for a lot of people, even with their closest friends. Men are taught to be driven, active, leaders. It’s what we’ve been conditioned to by society for thousands of years. There’s a growing shift towards men embracing what can be seen as “femininity” in aspects of life, particularly emotionally, but speaking from experience here, it’s still hard to open up to my guy friends. And I have good guy friends who absolutely would listen and support me. Hell, they have.
Toxic masculinity has been brought up here, and kinda shot down, but if you dig deep, that’s what a lot of it is. Note that doesn’t make these people BAD PEOPLE, they’re as much victims of it as you are. There’s no correlation between ‘strength’ and showing emotion. No one, man or woman, is going to look at someone going through it and say ‘ah they she’d a tear! Weakling!’ Hell, if anything, it takes a lot of strength to be emotionally honest. But that feeling is present as a low-level background noise everywhere. Men don’t cry. Get over it you’re a man. She dumped you? She wasn’t that good anyway bro. Nah man, that shit HURTS. This is what toxic masculinity is. Not toxic MEN but toxic STANDARDS, which are perpetuated by both sides.
In my experience, this isn’t a gendered distinction - but rather just down to the individual person.
Some of my closest friends that are both men and women alike are friends I consider “letting my guard down” around. The same applies in the opposite direction, where I have friends (but generally more on the distant friend / acquaintance side) men and women alike that I have to be a bit more guarded around.
And while I can’t comment on this specifically because I of course don’t know you and as such have no frame of reference, from what I’ve experienced in the past and seen others go through, is that a lot of times it’s how you bring it up. If it seems more forceful, it’s going to have a higher chance to not land well with people (of any gender).
Edit: Another thing worthwhile to note, is that people have different ways of expressing emotional acceptance. For example, my grandfather would never turn me, or anyone away for expressing their emotions. But, he’s more of a silent listener, and doesn’t usually comment on it - but I know that he is still accepting of my emotions the few times that I bring it up. It’s very similar to the concept of love languages, if you’ve ever heard that. It’s very possible that the men in your life are more the silent listener type.
Obligatory “nOt ALl MeN”
I’m a dude and I’m fine with my guy friends showing emotion. Very few do. We’re socially taught it’s weird, but it’s not.
Get yourself a guy friend you can hug.
Yeah … you’re right 🙈
problem is though
Past sexual abuse makes it physically icky (I’m straight!!)
Yeah, that’s a concern. But these types of guys typically understand consent, so will respect that.
I don’t think it’s a man/woman thing. I have been friends with men who were very supportive during such times, and women who saw it as weakness. I’ve also met a lot of women who are turned off by romantic gestures and sentimental feelings coming from men. And of course, I’ve encountered many that were the reverse of these.
So I honestly don’t think gender is a factor here. I think it varies a lot from person to person regardless of gender. It also highly depends on your relationship with that person. Don’t expect a lot of support or empathy from your most casual friends. Some friends will run away from you at the first sign of anything remotely ‘clingy’.
It also highly depends on your relationship with that person. Don’t expect a lot of support or empathy from your most casual friends. Some friends will run away from you at the first sign of anything remotely ‘clingy’.
This is almost certainly part of it. Reality is, most people will only have one or two friendships that are developed enough to be even close to totally vulnerable with. Most people have between 3 to 5 close friends, without much regard for gender.
In the age of social media, friendships seem diluted to me. The vast majority of people you meet, if you come out and dump the mess of your life on them… they’re gonna back away.
It isn’t that they’re unempathetic, either. Maintaining that kind of intimate friendship requires a lot of effort and intentionality; people are going to take a step back because they just don’t have the energy to deal with it and the relationship lacks the frame work of trust and mutual understanding to do more than “gee that sucks. Uhm. Good luck with that.”
That said, it is entirely possible that the culture one finds oneself in has dictated all the things that are being said elsewhere here. For a common example, religious congregations that hew to conservative/traditional relationships.
In the age of social media, friendships seem diluted to me.
I agree. People have always been selfish and self-absorbed to varying degrees. But social media acts as an amplifier of that, from what I’ve seen.
It isn’t that they’re unempathetic, either.
Thanks for pointing this out (and your other good points). It’s not reasonable to expect just any random person you know to be a shoulder to cry on.
Unfortunately, I think our modern “pace of life” here in 2023 has diminished the number and quality of those deeper friendships. I think back to my parents in the 70s and 80s, and how they had close friends that they would spend a lot of time talking on the phone with, visiting with in person on a frequent basis, writing letters and postcards to, etc. Much of that would seem completely absurd to a young person today. People are terrified of talking on the phone, and have forgotten how to do anything but conduct robot-like business on the phone (and they resent doing even that).
Obviously, in any discussion about groups as diverse as men/women, it’s important to recognize that these are sweeping generalizations and that individuals can vary wildly.
It’s not being “sensitive” or “emotional” that most dudes have trouble with.
Most women probably don’t consider it a sign of strength, either. Not the sensitivity or emotionality.
In my experience, most men are focused on something that is happening. A sport or activity, a task, whatever. Your sharing is most likely out of rapport and just isn’t how they want to interact.
I have close male friendships that are very emotionally open, and others where it just doesn’t feel right.
In my experience, women are different. Male/female relationships are already complicated and getting into preferences and other dynamics is pointless. It could be anything.
Assuming you’re attractive/confident/wealthy/etc, there would be many women who would comfort you just to keep you in their orbit.
Assuming you aren’t, there are many women who would comfort you out of a sense of maternal care and empathy.
Assuming you’re usually friendly, funny, safe, etc, women broadly seem to be kinder and more interested in interacting in that emotional space.
Does any of it matter? Probably not. Before insulting all men you know, it might be better to consider that you might just not like to have typical male friends. Just because people don’t like doing what you do, it doesn’t make them dumb.
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You have given lemmy very little to go on here, so pick whichever answer you prefer.
Hypothesis 1: The culture of which you are a part has established gender roles which lead to its women typically being more emotionally open and empathic than the menfolk.
Hypothesis 2: For similar cultural reasons, women around you tend to favour a communications style that happens to be more compatible with the one you have developed for yourself, leading to easier mutual understanding.
Hypothesis 3: You have some hang-ups of your own about sex which are making you more receptive to female company than male.
I’m not sure about H1, because I’m younger in years than the number of relocations I had in my life
H3 plays definitely a part into my perception tho!
Find the right men. There are 4 billion men out there and many are able to communicate and be there for friends. It may take moving into some peripheral spaces where different experiences and points of view are appreciated.
