so, all Hamas needs to do is surrender and give up all their weapons and Israel will go back to the relationship before Hamas?
the relationship defined by occupation, fences, and a systematic annexation of Palestinian land.
you make the mistake of not knowing history, they tried it for over 45 years with negotiation, the ONLY time Israel backed out of any region was due to military force, so, why should they assume it to be any different this time?
You are right. I’m don’t know the history of this conflict enough to have an informed discussion about it. My comment was more wishful thinking than any founded opinion. It’s just that all alternative scenarios are much more terrible than this one.
I actually do know the history of the region which is why arguing with someone like you who seems to live in a fantasy world where Hamas, the peace seekers (and all round good guys) tried to get Israel out of their (?) land by negotiation.
The constant bombings, missile attacks and three all out invasions of Israel (for genocide) never happened and Hamas and their precursors were just trying logic and reason the whole time 😂
Wtf are you talking about? The straw manning is crazy. They never said Hamas was the good guys in that comment or that they tried to get land through negotiation. They were talking about the relationship with Palestine before Hamas. Hamas was a result of the failures of those negotiations.
If you oppress people and take their land without a peaceful resolution, of course a violent, terrorist group will result. We’ve seen it in other countries, too, from the IRA in the UK to the ANC in South Africa and the BLA in the United States. If Hamas were to disappear an equivalent is just going to appear again without the underlying conditions that caused them to be created being solved, or without full ethnic cleansing, which is obviously the route Israel would prefer.
So, you have an issue with time, ok there is this concept of “before” and the concept of “after”, now before Hamas even existed, Israel was literally straight up occupying Gaza, afterward Israel only blockaded them.
And yes, it is their land, the same way that India isn’t British land, Ukraine isn’t Russian, Brazil isn’t Portuguese, etc., etc., etc…
Now no one said that Hamas was the “good guys”, but the assertion that Israel is, is comical, at best
Also, the Genocide thing is a bit far stretched, and requires an interpretation that would make Israel just as, if not more, genocidal.
And yes, if the only way you have ever been able to gain anything was through violence, why wouldn’t you choose violence? because it hurts your feefees that a white person had to die? meanwhile, the not-violent west bank gets to watch as soldiers who bravely kill children are awarded with medals.
Lol you gave me a good laugh with this and I lost it when you said ‘the genocide thing is a bit stretched’.
I think most Iranian officials start their morning by saying ‘What a nice day to kill all Jews!’
Hamas was even crazy enough to put ‘kill the Jews’ in their original manifesto.
The difference here is that as hard as you Hamas ball fondlers try to spin it otherwise, if Hamas surrenders and let’s the hostages go, Israel will in turn end the war and the killing stopped. The other choice is that Israel stops fighting in which case the Palestinians and pals will do exactly what they’ve said they want to do - commit genocide.
ok, you have officially gone into the territory of “my enemy is literally worse than Satan”.
also, so what? The AFU put kill the Boer in their manifesto.
And lastly, you show how fucking little you actually know about any of this, or how little you care, because the one thing that sentence was right on is committing genocide, because to the Netanyahu government it was never about the hostages, and they have already declared that this war will continue until they are sure that every last member of Hamas is dead.
Now, how do you do that to an insurgency without genocide is anybody’s guess.
Now I have, seemingly unlike you, actually considered the stances I take.
Because for you to have considered this stance, you must have come to the conclusion that all the out group are the same and thus deserving of death for the crime of being similar to someone who did something bad.
So please, tell me how the 16 year old child in Gaza is guilty and should be put to the sword, for the crime of existing in a nation controlled by Hamas.
Before you bring the “human shields” sob story, the IDF very much has the ability to not indiscriminately kill, but the very real figures as to the makeup of the casualties is an almost perfect statistical representation of the civilian population, meaning that any Hamas actually killed is incidental as an overlap of the population.
I love that you speak with such certainty, from such ignorance.
There is one irrefutable rule of combat that is that the aggressor sets the rules.
In this case Hamas is the aggressor and is choosing to fight in heavily populated urban areas. They know this will cause maximum casualties to the Palestinians…they’re counting on it.
Your belief that the IDF can magically stop civilian casualties is inexplicable. Hamas could though - push the battle into the hills etc. It’s just as effective militarily but they really just want Palestinians dead for propaganda - influencing rubes is their aim.
I know you’re a propagandist and I can’t convince you but it’s important others realise that you are not just wrong but willfully so.
If you really cared even slightly for the Palestinians you’d be calling for the end of this war through the surrender of Hamas and the release of the hostages. You won’t and don’t.
I think you are conflating between Gaza and the West Bank. Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. No occupation, no fences (other than a border) and no annexation of land
Due to the massive amounts of undue power the blockade gives Israel over Gazans’ lives, many organizations (including the UN) consider Gaza still under Israeli occupation.
Speaking as an Egyptian, Egypt is mostly doing it for American aid. That said, the Egyptian government (Arab leaders generally are, but Egypt even more so) is a traitor to the Arab and Muslim people, and an accomplice to Israel’s crime against humanity. Ayone involved in the blockade on Egypt’s end (and Israel’s, but doubly so for Egypt’s) out of their own will should be hanged.
You sound like a member of the Muslim Brotherhood. Take your Coptic Christian harassing, LGBTQ-hating, tourist attacking butt out of here. Egypt is doing it because they don’t want Palestinians waging war inside Egypt’s sovereign territory. The Egyptian government is so brutal because the people you support want a freaking Caliphate. Egypt is for Egyptians, not just Arabs and Muslims. Go fly a kite.
by UN definition, what Israel is doing in Gaza is still an occupation, the IDF has cut every single route out, even going as far as to patrol a 1km wide strip on the border of Egypt and Gaza for years, why do you think the Gaza-Egypte supplies (like the WMD that is KFC or an old car) are all transported via kilometers long tunnels?
At which point do you believe that Hamas will disarm its arsenal of rockets firing regularly at Israel ? What would need to happen for Hamas to do that you think ?
we could start with not shooting anyone the snipers on the border can see, maybe lift the blockade, stop trying to starve them out (most Gazans don’t even reach 40 due to malnutrition and IDF “grass cutting”), maybe don’t limit them to 4 days of water a week, let them rebuild and operate their own power plant again, stopping IDF supported Pogroms in the west bank (yes the very same the occupied the IDF as Hamas attacked), stopping the illegal settlements, actually allow for a 2-state solution where Israel doesn’t control all the water etc…
The list is long, it won’t happen overnight, but such is the bed that the Israeli government has made.
But don’t worry, they are going with the genocide route, because the Zionists in Israel are mainly not the survivors of the holocaust, but fervent nationalists so far removed from the horrors of the Nazi regime, that they openly mock holocaust survivors, and completely disregard those who got shipped off to gulags by the Russians and/or couldn’t move to Israel before 1953 (because any of them that came after 1953 aren’t real Jews to begin with)
A lot of what you said is just factually incorrect. Putting the west bank aside and focusing on Gaza, there was no humanitarian crisis before October 7 and there are no settlements in Gaza. The “snipers at the border” were not so effective on the day of October 7th when Hamas broke into Israel and massacred women and children. Hamas did not go into settlements in the west bank. It went into regular villages and cities and did what it did.
And that last part about the mocking of Holocaust survivors, not sure where you get that from
As for Hamas not being in settlements in the west bank, you know how geography works? tho I guess we ignore the Pogroms that happen there, Ironically with the weapons that were pulled from the Gaza border security forces, that couldn’t have anything to do with anything, entirely separate incident of Israeli killing Palestinians, in a 70+year long thing that involves the ethnic tensions between the Palestinians and Israelis.
I like how you quote critical articles from Israeli media, that is a testimony that freedom of speech is very much a real thing there.
The first article from Haaretz which is very known as anti settlements leftist newspaper. All it says is that instead of giving weapons for the population in the villages and kibbutz and cities around Gaza to defend themselves in case of intrusion, it was given for settlements in the west bank and when the shit hit the fan they were completely unprepared.
The second article is also an internal criticism of the progroms that went in Huwara. I am happy that criticism of Israel is still possible
The last one about Itzik Zarka, who should really not get a headline as he’s the lowest form of scum, yeah these people exist but are very much on the fringe of society and do not deserve any attention. Unfortunately Bibi likes to use these people when convenient for him
your entire argument here is that, it’s not so bad because a newspaper reports on it?
as if modern propaganda campaigns don’t work mainly by information flooding instead of censorship (this is true even in China)
also that “lowest form of scum” was voted in, and is to this day part of the government, and while he was the only one who got called out (because he was the first to say it openly) the rest of them are all still there, in positions of power, why? because those in power in Israel are not the victims of WW2, but fans of theocrat-ethno-state who didn’t feel the pain of genocide
the WHO can’t collect data in Gaza, nor does is report on Gaza, but only the “Palestinian occupied territories” meaning you are getting the life expectancy of the more wealthy parts of the west bank
Bruh, you are really going to stand behind the assertion that most folks in Gaza don’t live past 40? You are just rediculously, stupidly wrong. There are NUMEROUS well-regarded sources of information that say otherwise. I only went with WHO because it was the first of MANY MANY NGOs that establish you are incorrect. “In 2022, the life expectancy in the occupied Palestinian territory was 75.4 years for females and 73.2 for males, and was slightly higher in the West Bank (75.7 years for females; 73.5 years for males) than in the Gaza Strip (75.0 years for females; 72.5 years for males).” Page 2. WHO - the very source you provided, in fact, coincidentally
so, all Hamas needs to do is surrender and give up all their weapons and Israel will go back to the relationship before Hamas?
the relationship defined by occupation, fences, and a systematic annexation of Palestinian land.
you make the mistake of not knowing history, they tried it for over 45 years with negotiation, the ONLY time Israel backed out of any region was due to military force, so, why should they assume it to be any different this time?
You are right. I’m don’t know the history of this conflict enough to have an informed discussion about it. My comment was more wishful thinking than any founded opinion. It’s just that all alternative scenarios are much more terrible than this one.
I actually do know the history of the region which is why arguing with someone like you who seems to live in a fantasy world where Hamas, the peace seekers (and all round good guys) tried to get Israel out of their (?) land by negotiation.
The constant bombings, missile attacks and three all out invasions of Israel (for genocide) never happened and Hamas and their precursors were just trying logic and reason the whole time 😂
Wtf are you talking about? The straw manning is crazy. They never said Hamas was the good guys in that comment or that they tried to get land through negotiation. They were talking about the relationship with Palestine before Hamas. Hamas was a result of the failures of those negotiations.
If you oppress people and take their land without a peaceful resolution, of course a violent, terrorist group will result. We’ve seen it in other countries, too, from the IRA in the UK to the ANC in South Africa and the BLA in the United States. If Hamas were to disappear an equivalent is just going to appear again without the underlying conditions that caused them to be created being solved, or without full ethnic cleansing, which is obviously the route Israel would prefer.
So, you have an issue with time, ok there is this concept of “before” and the concept of “after”, now before Hamas even existed, Israel was literally straight up occupying Gaza, afterward Israel only blockaded them.
And yes, it is their land, the same way that India isn’t British land, Ukraine isn’t Russian, Brazil isn’t Portuguese, etc., etc., etc…
Now no one said that Hamas was the “good guys”, but the assertion that Israel is, is comical, at best Also, the Genocide thing is a bit far stretched, and requires an interpretation that would make Israel just as, if not more, genocidal.
And yes, if the only way you have ever been able to gain anything was through violence, why wouldn’t you choose violence? because it hurts your feefees that a white person had to die? meanwhile, the not-violent west bank gets to watch as soldiers who bravely kill children are awarded with medals.
so much for “knowing the history of the region”
Lol you gave me a good laugh with this and I lost it when you said ‘the genocide thing is a bit stretched’.
I think most Iranian officials start their morning by saying ‘What a nice day to kill all Jews!’
Hamas was even crazy enough to put ‘kill the Jews’ in their original manifesto.
The difference here is that as hard as you Hamas ball fondlers try to spin it otherwise, if Hamas surrenders and let’s the hostages go, Israel will in turn end the war and the killing stopped. The other choice is that Israel stops fighting in which case the Palestinians and pals will do exactly what they’ve said they want to do - commit genocide.
ok, you have officially gone into the territory of “my enemy is literally worse than Satan”.
also, so what? The AFU put kill the Boer in their manifesto.
And lastly, you show how fucking little you actually know about any of this, or how little you care, because the one thing that sentence was right on is committing genocide, because to the Netanyahu government it was never about the hostages, and they have already declared that this war will continue until they are sure that every last member of Hamas is dead. Now, how do you do that to an insurgency without genocide is anybody’s guess.
So what is your answer to clear, stated intent of genocide?
Dude take a moment and think what you’re supporting. 😞
The answer? not doing genocide.
Now I have, seemingly unlike you, actually considered the stances I take.
Because for you to have considered this stance, you must have come to the conclusion that all the out group are the same and thus deserving of death for the crime of being similar to someone who did something bad.
So please, tell me how the 16 year old child in Gaza is guilty and should be put to the sword, for the crime of existing in a nation controlled by Hamas. Before you bring the “human shields” sob story, the IDF very much has the ability to not indiscriminately kill, but the very real figures as to the makeup of the casualties is an almost perfect statistical representation of the civilian population, meaning that any Hamas actually killed is incidental as an overlap of the population.
I love that you speak with such certainty, from such ignorance.
There is one irrefutable rule of combat that is that the aggressor sets the rules.
In this case Hamas is the aggressor and is choosing to fight in heavily populated urban areas. They know this will cause maximum casualties to the Palestinians…they’re counting on it.
Your belief that the IDF can magically stop civilian casualties is inexplicable. Hamas could though - push the battle into the hills etc. It’s just as effective militarily but they really just want Palestinians dead for propaganda - influencing rubes is their aim.
I know you’re a propagandist and I can’t convince you but it’s important others realise that you are not just wrong but willfully so.
If you really cared even slightly for the Palestinians you’d be calling for the end of this war through the surrender of Hamas and the release of the hostages. You won’t and don’t.
I think you are conflating between Gaza and the West Bank. Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. No occupation, no fences (other than a border) and no annexation of land
Due to the massive amounts of undue power the blockade gives Israel over Gazans’ lives, many organizations (including the UN) consider Gaza still under Israeli occupation.
Gazans used to cross to Israel on a daily basis for work (since October 7th, I don’t see that happening anymore)
What about Egypt ? What is their role in this “open air prison” ?
Speaking as an Egyptian, Egypt is mostly doing it for American aid. That said, the Egyptian government (Arab leaders generally are, but Egypt even more so) is a traitor to the Arab and Muslim people, and an accomplice to Israel’s crime against humanity. Ayone involved in the blockade on Egypt’s end (and Israel’s, but doubly so for Egypt’s) out of their own will should be hanged.
You sound like a member of the Muslim Brotherhood. Take your Coptic Christian harassing, LGBTQ-hating, tourist attacking butt out of here. Egypt is doing it because they don’t want Palestinians waging war inside Egypt’s sovereign territory. The Egyptian government is so brutal because the people you support want a freaking Caliphate. Egypt is for Egyptians, not just Arabs and Muslims. Go fly a kite.
I think I know who Egypt is for more than you. And no, I’m not a member of the Muslim Brotherhood, thanks for asking.
I mean, some did. With special visas and stuff. That still means they’re occupied.
by UN definition, what Israel is doing in Gaza is still an occupation, the IDF has cut every single route out, even going as far as to patrol a 1km wide strip on the border of Egypt and Gaza for years, why do you think the Gaza-Egypte supplies (like the WMD that is KFC or an old car) are all transported via kilometers long tunnels?
At which point do you believe that Hamas will disarm its arsenal of rockets firing regularly at Israel ? What would need to happen for Hamas to do that you think ?
we could start with not shooting anyone the snipers on the border can see, maybe lift the blockade, stop trying to starve them out (most Gazans don’t even reach 40 due to malnutrition and IDF “grass cutting”), maybe don’t limit them to 4 days of water a week, let them rebuild and operate their own power plant again, stopping IDF supported Pogroms in the west bank (yes the very same the occupied the IDF as Hamas attacked), stopping the illegal settlements, actually allow for a 2-state solution where Israel doesn’t control all the water etc…
The list is long, it won’t happen overnight, but such is the bed that the Israeli government has made.
But don’t worry, they are going with the genocide route, because the Zionists in Israel are mainly not the survivors of the holocaust, but fervent nationalists so far removed from the horrors of the Nazi regime, that they openly mock holocaust survivors, and completely disregard those who got shipped off to gulags by the Russians and/or couldn’t move to Israel before 1953 (because any of them that came after 1953 aren’t real Jews to begin with)
A lot of what you said is just factually incorrect. Putting the west bank aside and focusing on Gaza, there was no humanitarian crisis before October 7 and there are no settlements in Gaza. The “snipers at the border” were not so effective on the day of October 7th when Hamas broke into Israel and massacred women and children. Hamas did not go into settlements in the west bank. It went into regular villages and cities and did what it did.
And that last part about the mocking of Holocaust survivors, not sure where you get that from
you are the definition of if you don’t see it, it doesn’t exist.
“there was no humanitarian crisis in Ba Sing Ee”
Snipers were needed for Pogroms in Westbank (that you seem hellbent on ignoring because it’s inconvenient)
As for Hamas not being in settlements in the west bank, you know how geography works? tho I guess we ignore the Pogroms that happen there, Ironically with the weapons that were pulled from the Gaza border security forces, that couldn’t have anything to do with anything, entirely separate incident of Israeli killing Palestinians, in a 70+year long thing that involves the ethnic tensions between the Palestinians and Israelis.
and the Holocaust mocking? ya, that’s the current Israeli government, they hate the holocaust survivors and try to screw them over as much as they can
I like how you quote critical articles from Israeli media, that is a testimony that freedom of speech is very much a real thing there.
The first article from Haaretz which is very known as anti settlements leftist newspaper. All it says is that instead of giving weapons for the population in the villages and kibbutz and cities around Gaza to defend themselves in case of intrusion, it was given for settlements in the west bank and when the shit hit the fan they were completely unprepared.
The second article is also an internal criticism of the progroms that went in Huwara. I am happy that criticism of Israel is still possible
The last one about Itzik Zarka, who should really not get a headline as he’s the lowest form of scum, yeah these people exist but are very much on the fringe of society and do not deserve any attention. Unfortunately Bibi likes to use these people when convenient for him
your entire argument here is that, it’s not so bad because a newspaper reports on it?
as if modern propaganda campaigns don’t work mainly by information flooding instead of censorship (this is true even in China)
also that “lowest form of scum” was voted in, and is to this day part of the government, and while he was the only one who got called out (because he was the first to say it openly) the rest of them are all still there, in positions of power, why? because those in power in Israel are not the victims of WW2, but fans of theocrat-ethno-state who didn’t feel the pain of genocide
The life expectancy in Gaza is over 70 years, according to WHO data. Go spread misinformation elsewhere.
the WHO can’t collect data in Gaza, nor does is report on Gaza, but only the “Palestinian occupied territories” meaning you are getting the life expectancy of the more wealthy parts of the west bank
but no, please don’t just quote some figures you see anywhere read the document and its conclusions about the region even before this latest conflict phase started
Bruh, you are really going to stand behind the assertion that most folks in Gaza don’t live past 40? You are just rediculously, stupidly wrong. There are NUMEROUS well-regarded sources of information that say otherwise. I only went with WHO because it was the first of MANY MANY NGOs that establish you are incorrect. “In 2022, the life expectancy in the occupied Palestinian territory was 75.4 years for females and 73.2 for males, and was slightly higher in the West Bank (75.7 years for females; 73.5 years for males) than in the Gaza Strip (75.0 years for females; 72.5 years for males).” Page 2. WHO - the very source you provided, in fact, coincidentally