The prime minister said he won’t allow the Palestinian Authority to take over Gaza, his sharpest comments yet against the White House plan for after the war.
Look up the past negotiations on the two-state solution. The method proposed was to first recognize a Palestinian proto-state with Israel still controlling military and borders. Over time, as the Palestinian proto-state strengthened, showed it could control terrorism, and avoid becoming an Iranian proxy and base for another attack on Israel, the Palestinian state would become a fully sovereign nation.
What you are suggesting is impractical, certainly in Gaza. Gaza is ruled by a different government from the West Bank, and Hamas is like Hezbollah. They are a militant Iranian proxy that wants to destroy Israel, and they’ve proved it yet again.
Now, Israel has certainly NOT sought peace since Likud came to power. The events of October 7 have been brewing for over 15 years, during which time neither Hamas nor Israel has sought real peace. They’ve both been ratcheting up the pressure.
So, I’m not sure what your point is. There was a point during the Camp David talks that a path to a two-state solution seemed close. Unfortunately, the talks failed, but clearly the Israeli and Palestinian governments were literally seeking peace and willing to make concessions. Now, relations are so bad and Palestinian governance in Gaza is in such a shambles that your proposed solution would be a disaster, for both Israel and the Palestinians.
The actual practical path is to return to negotiations aimed at incrementally building a two-state solution. That means the Israeli far-right coalition government has to go, the Jewish settlements in the West Bank have to go, and it also means that Hamas and others just bent on terrorism have to go. Until that happens, they can’t return to practical negotiations. I mean, that’s obvious, right? Extremist Israelis want to eliminate the Palestinians, and extremist Palestinians want to eliminate Israel. Both have to go. Peace negotiations with someone who doesn’t want peace is pointless.
Maybe October 7 and Israel’s response will prove so horrific that it will cause both populations to vote moderates back into power who will genuinely get back to the negotiating table and not give up.
Look up the past negotiations on the two-state solution. The method proposed was to first recognize a Palestinian proto-state with Israel still controlling military and borders. Over time, as the Palestinian proto-state strengthened, showed it could control terrorism, and avoid becoming an Iranian proxy and base for another attack on Israel, the Palestinian state would become a fully sovereign nation.
That doesn’t sound like sovereignty, that sounds like unilateral Israeli control.
What you are suggesting is impractical, certainly in Gaza. Gaza is ruled by a different government from the West Bank, and Hamas is like Hezbollah. They are a militant Iranian proxy that wants to destroy Israel, and they’ve proved it yet again.
Imagine if Russia used this reasoning in Ukraine.
Hamas nor Israel has sought real peace.
Hamas has every right to resist foreign occupation. It’s not their responsibility to submit to Israeli domination for the sake of peace.
The actual practical path is to return to negotiations aimed at incrementally building a two-state solution. That means the Israeli far-right coalition government has to go, the Jewish settlements in the West Bank have to go, and it also means that Hamas and others just bent on terrorism have to go. Until that happens, they can’t return to practical negotiations. I mean, that’s obvious, right? Extremist Israelis want to eliminate the Palestinians, and extremist Palestinians want to eliminate Israel. Both have to go. Peace negotiations with someone who doesn’t want peace is pointless.
Again, read this and imagine proposing it in Ukraine.
Maybe October 7 and Israel’s response will prove so horrific that it will cause both populations to vote moderates back into power who will genuinely get back to the negotiating table and not give up.
Brutalising and imiserating people only makes them more radical and militant
That’s a very hard line stance you have there. That sort of uncompromising attitude is exactly what both Hamas and the Israeli right-wing have been advocating for years. Sticking uncompromisingly to your principles makes for great drama, but is really the opposite of effective diplomacy.
I wouldn’t want to apply the process proposed for Palestine and Israel to Ukraine and Russia. I’m not sure why you would want me to defend that. I don’t agree with that solution for Ukraine. It’s a completely different situation. Again, this where I think you are going wrong and perhaps misunderstanding me. People who just want to talk about principles and which side is more morally correct are the ones moving the two sides farther apart. Think realpolitik.
Like I said, uncompromising principles make for great drama, but you need an actual realistic plan. How exactly would this uncompromising stance you propose work? Do you think the Arab countries will come to Palestine’s rescue militarily? Not happening. Do you think it will be like South Africa and the whole world will sanction Israel into submission? That’s not happening either. It’s not the 1980s anymore. Bono and the gang aren’t going to solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. What is the actual realistic alternative to the two-state incremental path I outlined above?
I wouldn’t want to apply the process proposed for Palestine and Israel to Ukraine and Russia. It’s a completely different situation.
Why not? I can only think of one difference, and that’s race.
Think realpolitik.
I wasn’t the one trying to sugercoat “Palestine needs to surrender to Israeli domination” as “both sides need to come together to negotiate peace”.
How exactly would this uncompromising stance you propose work? Do you think the Arab countries will come to Palestine’s rescue militarily? Not happening. Do you think it will be like South Africa and the whole world will sanction Israel into submission? That’s not happening either. It’s not the 1980s anymore. Bono and the gang aren’t going to solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
You realize you’ve gone from “both sides need to come together to work towards peace” to “There is nothing that can be done to stop or even temper Israel’s oppression; Palestine needs to throw itself on Israel’s mercy.”
Seems to me though, support for Israel is at an all time low and the USA is slowly falling apart. Armed resistance seems to be working.
Why not? I can only think of one difference, and that’s race.
LOL, what? That sounds like a you-problem, not a me-problem. You do realize that Jews and Palestinians are both Semites, right? You also realize that European have killed more Jews than all of the rest of the world combined, right? Also, in the case pf Ukraine, you may recall that Aryan types despise Slavs just as much as Jews. What you are suggesting makes no sense. It’s a meme, not an analysis.
Also, I wouldn’t necessarily suggest the Israeli-Palestinian incremental two-state process for Taiwan-China, North Korea-South Korea, Sudan, Ethiopia-Eritrea, Yemen-Saudi, or any of the other dozens of global conflicts involving any combination of races and ethnicities. Oh wait, wait, wait, I’ve got a good one. Tell me about how I prefer the UK in the UK-Argentina Falklands dispute because the British are ever so slightly more Nordic looking, on average, than Argentinians, and not because Argentina is an economic and political basket case and was ruled by a military junta during the Falklands War.
You’ve got some serious blinders on, my friend, if you see the world through so narrow and reductive a lense. Reducing the whole world to shades of brown vs. shades of pink or tan is not a good way to understand the world. It also makes it difficult to have anything like a good-faith debate.
Look up the past negotiations on the two-state solution. The method proposed was to first recognize a Palestinian proto-state with Israel still controlling military and borders. Over time, as the Palestinian proto-state strengthened, showed it could control terrorism, and avoid becoming an Iranian proxy and base for another attack on Israel, the Palestinian state would become a fully sovereign nation.
What you are suggesting is impractical, certainly in Gaza. Gaza is ruled by a different government from the West Bank, and Hamas is like Hezbollah. They are a militant Iranian proxy that wants to destroy Israel, and they’ve proved it yet again.
Now, Israel has certainly NOT sought peace since Likud came to power. The events of October 7 have been brewing for over 15 years, during which time neither Hamas nor Israel has sought real peace. They’ve both been ratcheting up the pressure.
So, I’m not sure what your point is. There was a point during the Camp David talks that a path to a two-state solution seemed close. Unfortunately, the talks failed, but clearly the Israeli and Palestinian governments were literally seeking peace and willing to make concessions. Now, relations are so bad and Palestinian governance in Gaza is in such a shambles that your proposed solution would be a disaster, for both Israel and the Palestinians.
The actual practical path is to return to negotiations aimed at incrementally building a two-state solution. That means the Israeli far-right coalition government has to go, the Jewish settlements in the West Bank have to go, and it also means that Hamas and others just bent on terrorism have to go. Until that happens, they can’t return to practical negotiations. I mean, that’s obvious, right? Extremist Israelis want to eliminate the Palestinians, and extremist Palestinians want to eliminate Israel. Both have to go. Peace negotiations with someone who doesn’t want peace is pointless.
Maybe October 7 and Israel’s response will prove so horrific that it will cause both populations to vote moderates back into power who will genuinely get back to the negotiating table and not give up.
That doesn’t sound like sovereignty, that sounds like unilateral Israeli control.
Imagine if Russia used this reasoning in Ukraine.
Hamas has every right to resist foreign occupation. It’s not their responsibility to submit to Israeli domination for the sake of peace.
Again, read this and imagine proposing it in Ukraine.
Brutalising and imiserating people only makes them more radical and militant
That’s a very hard line stance you have there. That sort of uncompromising attitude is exactly what both Hamas and the Israeli right-wing have been advocating for years. Sticking uncompromisingly to your principles makes for great drama, but is really the opposite of effective diplomacy.
It shouldn’t be a handline stance, and in most contexts it wouldn’t be.
Again, let’s here you apply your principles to Ukraine here.
I wouldn’t want to apply the process proposed for Palestine and Israel to Ukraine and Russia. I’m not sure why you would want me to defend that. I don’t agree with that solution for Ukraine. It’s a completely different situation. Again, this where I think you are going wrong and perhaps misunderstanding me. People who just want to talk about principles and which side is more morally correct are the ones moving the two sides farther apart. Think realpolitik.
Like I said, uncompromising principles make for great drama, but you need an actual realistic plan. How exactly would this uncompromising stance you propose work? Do you think the Arab countries will come to Palestine’s rescue militarily? Not happening. Do you think it will be like South Africa and the whole world will sanction Israel into submission? That’s not happening either. It’s not the 1980s anymore. Bono and the gang aren’t going to solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. What is the actual realistic alternative to the two-state incremental path I outlined above?
Why not? I can only think of one difference, and that’s race.
I wasn’t the one trying to sugercoat “Palestine needs to surrender to Israeli domination” as “both sides need to come together to negotiate peace”.
You realize you’ve gone from “both sides need to come together to work towards peace” to “There is nothing that can be done to stop or even temper Israel’s oppression; Palestine needs to throw itself on Israel’s mercy.”
Seems to me though, support for Israel is at an all time low and the USA is slowly falling apart. Armed resistance seems to be working.
LOL, what? That sounds like a you-problem, not a me-problem. You do realize that Jews and Palestinians are both Semites, right? You also realize that European have killed more Jews than all of the rest of the world combined, right? Also, in the case pf Ukraine, you may recall that Aryan types despise Slavs just as much as Jews. What you are suggesting makes no sense. It’s a meme, not an analysis.
Also, I wouldn’t necessarily suggest the Israeli-Palestinian incremental two-state process for Taiwan-China, North Korea-South Korea, Sudan, Ethiopia-Eritrea, Yemen-Saudi, or any of the other dozens of global conflicts involving any combination of races and ethnicities. Oh wait, wait, wait, I’ve got a good one. Tell me about how I prefer the UK in the UK-Argentina Falklands dispute because the British are ever so slightly more Nordic looking, on average, than Argentinians, and not because Argentina is an economic and political basket case and was ruled by a military junta during the Falklands War.
You’ve got some serious blinders on, my friend, if you see the world through so narrow and reductive a lense. Reducing the whole world to shades of brown vs. shades of pink or tan is not a good way to understand the world. It also makes it difficult to have anything like a good-faith debate.