When I was young, I was naive to the ways of romance, and especially romantic communication. I was often oblivious to advances made upon me, and awkward and unskilled at making any expression of interest without just looking a bit foolish. However, after a lot of experience and many ups and downs in the pursuit of love, I find that I am no longer young.
Men are dense and women are indirect.
I know these are generalities, but it’s sooo freakin common that it’s a well-known trope.
I’d actually go a step further and say that it’s not so much that men are “dense” as it is that they are full of self-doubt…I.e., seeing the advances, knowing they are there, but not believing that they are actually intended for them, or it’s a joke/prank, or for whatever other reason, they convince themselves that it’s not an advance and they are misinterpreting.
IANAD, but I’d guess this has more to do with mens mental-health awareness than anything else.
It’s a trope, but it’s also supposedly “well known” that men are horny bastards who think with their dicks… yet somehow we have these the two very opposing scenarios.
Personally, despite a rather distinct lack of interest from the “fairer sex” prior to college, I found that plenty of women were more interested in sex than me in later years and not particularly subtle about it, which was actually off-putting as I wanted a relationship with a bit more substances. A lot of guys I know were in the same boat. Sex was easy. Finding somebody who actually wanted to do activities together was quite hard.
Something I’ve noticed in myself, maybe because of the lack of interest from women at a younger age, is that women will almost throw themselves at you sometimes. Like, yeah I get it, I’m down for that too, but I won’t be able to make it move for you if I don’t know you ma’am.
The tropes are projection.
The people who say that shit are almost always… the ones who do that shit. Every woman I know whines about shallow horny non-committal men… was talking about her own behavior and just blaming men for it. whenever they would meet a new guy they would go off about his looks and his money and other shallow traits, and then they would say they knew he wouldn’t commit but they didn’t care and would date him anway, and then if he didn’t commit she’d be so upset, but if he did commit… she’d dump him because there was ‘something wrong with him’. etc etc
Just like dudes who complain about shallow gold diggers… are mostly shallow gold diggers themselves.
Every woman I know whines about shallow horny non-committal men…
This really seems like some sort of cognitive bias, maybe Clustering Illusion?
She sees the horny non-committal men because they make obvious advances towards her (and, for that matter, she reciprocates).
The results of how men behave when she makes the first move, is first limited to the men she makes a move on first. That sounds confusing as hell but I don’t know how else to write it.
I don’t really want to figure out the
( n(n-1) / n)number of potential outcomes between which person makes an advance first, whether or not they are (interested/reciprocate; not interested/do not reciprocate; do not notice), and then further how the originator reacts and the outcome of the interaction.Needless to say, though, I imagine the number of men who do not reciprocate on her “first move”, either intentionally or not, would be significantly bottlenecked by the amount of people with whom she makes the first move to begin with.
There’s also the coy/flirty method of “playing hard to get” vs a lack of interest being interpreted as such.
Relationships are complicated.
It’s not that complicated, it’s because she’s attracted to those men and she regard healthier attitudes as unattractive in men. A lot of people have warped attitudes about romantic relationships and are repulsed by healthy people and seek out problematic ones.
Or maybe he just wasn’t in the mood? Despite the tropes, men don’t want sex ALL the time, and just like women don’t want to be responsible for the feelings of men, we don’t want to always be responsible for quelling the insecurities of women. This doesn’t even have to be a gendered thing. No one wants to be the only source of validation for their partner. Often we hope they are on some level emotionally mature and self assured.
OP was doing the person equivalent of a cat walking across your keyboard because you were typing instead of petting.
or it’s that the risk involved isn’t worth it.
because for every woman who ‘is sending you signals’ 7/10 of them will actually not be, and 2/10 of them will be, but deny it, and 1/10 will actually be happy you got the signal.
not to mention one woman’s ‘signal’ is another’s ignore you, is another’s just being friendly, is another’s desperately trying to passively tell you to fuck off. there is no consistency because every woman is different.
and plenty of women will up sleep with you, tell you they love you, want to be with you, and then laugh in your face and ask you why you thought she was ever interested a few days later. which is a total mindfuck.
as a man, who are you supposed to make any sense of any of that? you can’t. so you just learn to ignore it all and focus your efforts on ladies who are clear with their intentions and behaviors… of which there are not a lot, and if you find one you marry her.
many people are totally inconsistent, straight up lie, and are otherwise unclear about what they want and who they are to the opposite sex… because SEX.
a lot of people engaged in compeltely different personalities and behaviors when sex becomes involved. hence why their friends can’t understand why they ‘struggle’ with romantic partners… well because the person they are to their friends is totally different.
personally, i’ve always been SHOCKED at how radically different some of my gfs would behave around their friends vs around me or in public. it was like they were a completely different person. Stuff they’d tell me they hated, they told their friends they loved, etc.
Not worth the risk of misinterpretation in this age of everything is harassment, plus most (humans) are uninteresting to begin with anyway.
Succinct, eloquent prose there. Well said
Improved your sword making skills along the way?
Why of course I have. I’m pretty good at forging with a hammer and anvil and I have branched out to casting bronze swords. Though my knapping skills are still weak…
Amazing
For real tho, what is the name of that doc?
Also. Is Melissa single?
Finish watching the doc, then ask her.
Greg is single but there’s a lot of competition
For real. If he’s ignoring his girl getting sexy, that’s an awesome documentary and I’d like to see it!
It sounds like hes respecting consent, just being in your underwear doesn’t automatically mean you want him all over you and hes respecting that possibility.
If I was playing a video game that I was super sucked into and focused on, and then a girl I was with still in her underwear sat next to me, I wouldn’t assume it was an invitation to immediately begin sucking on her titties or something. I’d figure she just wanted to chill next to me in her undies.
If you want to have sex: communicate that. He probably would have been down.
This situation isn’t about consent; it’s about seduction and attraction. It’s not unrealistic that seeing your partner in their underwear might distract you from what you’re doing and elicit an amorous response, and that’s what she wants. There’s no suggestion that that response would be anything but respectful of consent.
what she wants is to be passive aggressive.
chances are if he does show interest, she’ll reject him. because that’s what passive-aggressive people do, because it’s all about power-games and manipulation.
if she genuinely wanted attention, she’d ask for it. with her words. which is precisely the thing passive-aggressive people never do, because they are seeking to be aggrieved and upset for their minds and whims not being magically known by their partners.
Wanting a partner that shows active interest in you isn’t passive agression it’s totally normal. They just sound young and stupid and need to work on their communication skills
sitting there and being butthurt that someone doesn’t notice you is passive aggressive.
‘being young and stupid’ means being immature and needing to grow up and express you desires like an adult.
Maybe she does. But it’s not actually uncommon for people to others to pick up on things without having to be explicitly told.
chances are if he does show interest, she’ll reject him. because that’s what passive-aggressive people do, because it’s all about power-games and manipulation.
This is incel-tier bullshit.
Oh, because consent is about mind-reading?
What she wears doesn’t imply consent, except for when she wants it to (without communicating that), and then it’s her boyfriend’s failure as a man for not magically picking up on that?
It never implies consent, and she hasn’t said it does, and hasn’t implied it does. Responding to an (apparent) attempt at seduction, which is what she actually wants, does not require one to do anything that requires consent. What do you think it involves? You think she wants him to climb aboard and start thrusting with no preamble? Can you imagine anything short of that that might make her happy?
Responding to an (apparent) attempt at seduction, which is what she actually wants, does not require one to do anything that requires consent.
What exactly do you think seduction is?
I was under the impression that consent is required for pretty much everything. So what exactly do you expect him to do?
“Hey, I noticed you’re in your underwear. Does this mean you’re propositioning me?”
You can obfuscate all you want by code switching whenever it’s convenient for you. “I’m horny, so nothing that I want right now requires consent” versus “I’m not in the mood right now, so if you even look at me without my consent I will hold a grudge against you for the rest of my life.”
Just don’t be surprised when people stop putting up with your bullshit. The dude is probably focusing on his game because he doesn’t feel like being teased, toyed with, and accused of heinous shit.
“Hey, I noticed you’re in your underwear. Does this mean you’re propositioning me?”
Rewrite this so it doesn’t sound like it was written by chatgpt and you’d have an appropriate response, for example.
Or he could put an arm around her, or lean in for a kiss, or whatever. The rest of your comment smells off. Stick to what’s in the original if we’re still talking about that, or else justify why what you’re saying is realistic.
Or he could put an arm around her, or lean in for a kiss, or whatever.
Are you saying those things don’t require consent? Because I’m pretty sure there are a lot of people out there who would roast your ass on a spit for trying that without asking for permission first.
Context matters dude. If your girlfriend ask for explicit consent before you hug her, you’re in an abusive relationship.
Are these people in the room with us now?
Seriously, I don’t think those people actually exist. And if they do, I’m going to continue to ignore them and not ask permission every time I kiss or touch my partner, who will continue to do likewise to me.
Leaning in for a kiss is not the same as kissing. It’s really not difficult at all to be able to tell if she wants to reciprocate or not.
Like goddamn, some people here really need to get laid.
Welcome to another classic episode of “Troll or incel!”
I’m going with troll for this one.
Welcome to another episode of “Not taking men’s concerns seriously even when they’re legitimately confused by all the mixed messages, double standards, and shifting expectations that are impossible to guess at any given moment!”
I’m going to go with maybe I’ve been gaslit for years, and I bet people still won’t treat that as valid.
So to be clear, you are confused about… what exactly?
In what possible way would “mind reading” even be relevant to this discussion?
Someone said the woman in the post is expecting advances from her boyfriend, but how is he supposed to know that? Everything I’ve heard for at least the past six years has been about how we’re never supposed to assume advances would be welcome. So the mind-reading is required because the guy is expected to just know that she wants that, without her ever telling him so.
My guy, it’s a joke. It’s not that deep
You aren’t very deep.
be more interesting than medieval sword making.
no, sex isn’t the answer. probably reading a book on medieval history and telling him about it is.
it always baffles me how many women i have dated… have no interests or passions, and seem to look down on people who do.
and the women i have dated who did have passions and interests… were way way more attractive and more fun to spend time with, because they didn’t expect me to entertain them.
I married a guy who already shared my interests, which I feel is a pretty hard requirement for a working relationship.
One of those interests is history, so we will be needing that docu as well
be more interested in medieval sword making.
no, sex isn’t the answer. probably reading a book on medieval
historysword making and telling him about it is.it always baffles me how many women i have dated… have no interests or passions in medieval sword making, and seem to look down on people who do.
and the women i have dated who did have passions and interests in medieval sword making… were way way more attractive and more fun to spend time with, because they provided the sauce for the video on it.
…ftfy
Hmm. A “hey” with three Ys and a smirk… I don’t think Melissa’s bf is the problem.
Would also love to know the doc, lol.
See my comment above, could be Reclaiming the Blade: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0961079/
If someone is actively engaged with something, you have to break their attention. I feel like people need to learn more about dissociation and blacksmithing.
“Men are disgusting! They only think about one thing
sexmedieval sword making!” /sHe just loves watching burly guys whacking red hot iron
“I have presented my flesh in his presence and that wasn’t automatically rewarded. What am I doing wrong?”
Have you tried… talking about shared interests? Being funny? Being charming and confident? Putting effort into romance? Like all the same advice that help men gain interest from women works the other way around too, you know? We’re all human.
have you dated recently?
social media is rife with woman-o-sphere nonsense that basically tells women all they have to do is sit there and look pretty and embrace traditional gender roles and be totally passive. everyone freaks out abotu the manosphere, but the womanosphere is just as toxic… but you can’t acknowledge how toxic it is it or you ‘hate women’. because apparently if men are sexist douchebags, that’s horrible, but if women are, it’s their them expressing their freedom, or something.
there has been a big shift in the past 5 years towards this stuff. I have noticed it a lot in dating, most women I meet now are incredibly passive and convinced that everything in the relationship is the man’s responsibility.
My last date before meeting my wife was 9 years ago. So no.
yeah 10 years ago things were more healthy and normal.
There’s a lot of profiles now who outright say they expect you to plan the date, make the first move etc.
yep, exactly how you know that person has toxic gender expectations.
those are the same types who think the first date should be a $300 dinner, and the second date should be $1000.
If you gonna be Alpha, you gotta Alpha.
I mean, the upside is you get to do exactly what you want to do, because you’re doing the organising.
Honestly, I respect them for laying it out like that.
No sure who said this… sounds like Bill Burr but … “No matter how beautiful she is, there’s some guy somewhere who’s tired of putting up with her shit”
Bill Burr performed in Saudi Arabia. He’s not kosher anymore.
Are you saying that’s a good thing or a bad thing?
Are you taking an anti-Arab or anti-Semitic position?
No we just don’t support people who support fascist regimes.
It’s bad. We don’t quote him anymore.
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More like anti-murdering-and-dismembering-of-journalists.
I remember seeing that as an image with text on it ages ago before we started calling those things memes.
The picture was something like generic young bombshell blonde in a swimsuit, I want to say.
Sometimes a man is just tired, you know?
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Find a woman mature enough to communicate her needs and ask explicitly for your attention? Anyone of any gender who expects their partner to be a mind reader is going to be disappointed, but people that learn to communicate their feelings and teach their partners that it is safe to do the same will be much happier. If they get upset at having to tell you what they’re thinking or feeling, they’re not ready for a serious relationship yet.
Find a woman mature enough to communicate her needs
👆
yes, but women overwhelmingly expect this as a ‘minimum standard’ and woman dating/relationship advice is full of maxims that basically say your man is shitty if he can’t read your mind or he isn’t subordinate to your every random whim.
and lots of women believe this nonsense as gospel and verse and trying to tell them maybe they are self-sabotaging… doesn’t go over well.
part of the reason this advice is so appealing is because it removes any agency/responsibility/risk of rejection from the woman and puts it all on the man. it reinforces classic gender norms that women are to be silent passive mysterious creatures and all action/agency is entirely the realm of the man.
Agreed. It’s definitely appealing to not have to put in any work, but sabotaging every relationship and having to start over again and again because you expect mindreaders sounds absolutely exhausting.
Like I said, it’s about maturity and the wisdom to realize all that bad advice is bullshit. As a partner you can try to be the one to call her out on it and build good communication skills from the ground up, or you can recognize the pattern and move on to someone who is willing to explicitly ask for their needs to be met.
yeah but it’s exhilarating putting yourself on a pedestal and waiting for your prince to come rescue you from yourself.
Are you ok?
I’m wonderful. I am just capable of acknowledging women are sexist, because I’m not sexist enough to think they can’t.
And these sexist beliefs often lead to toxic behaviors that are ultimately self-destructive.
Lol, moderator of /r Dating. If you are a woman, that is doubly hilarious.
Yes, women are capable of being sexist.
You seem a bit too interested in this topic?
a problem my wife and i had at the beginning of our relationship (solved very quickly, since we talked about it) is that i expected her to be able to intuitively read my body language. because the sign language i use is, for people who don’t sign, basically all body language and facial expressions (for people who do sign, there are no actual signs it’s all classifiers) and if you aren’t constantly reading body language, you won’t understand someone. it took an in-depth conversation about linguistics (a really fun one where we compared the four different sign languages the two of us use), but we managed to figure everything out.
where we compared the four different sign languages the two of us use
You buried the lede. How does something like that even happen? I feel like the odds of two sign-language polyglots being in the same room, let alone in a romantic relationship, are vanishingly small.
Yeah we were in a band together. Music brings the strangest combination of people together
That’s really interesting and not something I would have considered, thank you for sharing! I wonder how that impacts communication for deaf autistic folks who suck at body language?
I’ve always wondered. The sign languages I am familiar with have specific codes/rules for their body/facial languages (the technical term is non-manual markers. Stuff you do in the language without using your hands. Like nonverbal communication in English) for example, furrowing your brow is the way you turn some verbs from actions into questions (only like a couple hundred people use the sign language I use to my knowledge so I’m going to talk very vaguely about ASL or SEE. I’ve only seen one person outside of my little group use it and that’s Carel Struycken, who you might recognize as playing The Giant on Twin Peaks. I would love to speak to him someday and find out how my group and he learned the same sign language.
you should date a woman who is mature enough to express her needs to you openly.
and don’t date women who are passive and resentful and stuck in a child like mentality that you are supposed to magically know what they want without them expressing it clearly.
I guess it’s just hard to explain this stuff to people with autism, because it’s really not difficult to do in the moment.
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Have you tried laying next to your boyfriend while making a sword?
Not sure how laying next to him while he is making a sword is any different.
She could film him and make a documentary
Bit of a tangent and a big YES I am a giant fucking nerd - but I do text based roleplaying. People online don’t know my actual gender (chick) since I’ll play anything. One huge thing I noticed when playing a dude is a lot of the women would just kinda be there and try to be sexy hoping I would do something.
They didn’t all write like that, and I still had a few guys to starfished, so to speak, but goddamn YOU NEED TO ENGAGE ME. If I wanted something pretty, I would look at a painting. I need an activity.
“I put on my robe and wizard hat (and pray that you’re not watching a documentary on wand making.)”
I see you’re familiar with my technique.
"I am indeed. NOW I CAST LVL 99 EROTICISM. Nothing happens…
… I know I’m a fraud bb! I know who you are: you’re the great Wren of House Byrd, the mightest wizard of all the lands… I jus- I just wanted to be like you! And- and when I heard you were in town… 😭
I reluctantly take off my robe and wizard hat. Then I bolt away running. Don’t look at meee!"
Well, if it was Reclaiming the Blade, I’m not surprised !
My gf is coming back home from a week long trip tonight. Thanks for the recommendation!
🤣
Tysm I’m going to watch this right fucking now
