The Israel Defense Forces releases surveillance camera footage from Shifa Hospital showing Hamas terrorists bringing a Nepali and Thai citizen who were abducted from Israel on October 7 to the medical center.
Can we yet dispense with the fiction that hamas is fighting some just war?
Hiding behind civilians and intentionally using their deaths as propaganda is terrible.
Also, free palestine, fuck hamas, fuck likud, fuck Iran, and fuck Russia.
I don’t think anyone is saying the war is just but rather relatable. If someone occupied my country, killed my family and took my family land I can’t say I’d react any different.
You’d sneak into their villages and go door to door killing thousands of innocent people in their homes? And do the same to young people at a music festival?
I think we can all relate to resistance, but this is something else.
The protagonists in the Old Testament do exactly that more than once with less provocation, and millions of people still consider them the good guys. Israel’s PM in particular has specifically cited one of them as a model to emulate. Look up his comment about Amalek.
So yes, a lot of people would do that, and the people in charge of this massacre in particular would definitely do that given a chance. Or, you know, you can look at the fact that they basically are doing that right now, just with bombs rather than small arms.
You know you’re on the moral high ground of relatability when your evidence comes from the fucking Old Testament. Like when your morality comes from 4000+ years ago, wow, that’s some good shit right there. Hold my beer, I’m about to say that I read slavery is ok in the Old Testament. Watch as I drive down to Whole Foods with a net gun and get myself some laborers from the produce isles. It’s ok because they wear multiple kinds of cloth at the same time, and I saw one pick up a lobster so he can definitely be my chattel. There goes one holding hands with his partner, give me a minute while I righteously smite them in the name of my lord; pour out some salt for them!
Man, you suck at reading comprehension. I’m using the Old Testament as an example of what people believe, not a source of factual information. You understand those are different things, right?
Dude you suck at reading comprehension because that’s exactly what I addressed in my comment. If one’s belief system is actually based in or otherwise aligned with the Old Testament, their opinion is invalid and they are morally bankrupt.
The Old Testament is so fucking brutal and devoid of morality, that 2000 years ago people started Christianity just to get away from its brutality; that was literally the appeal of jesus. To say “god did a take back and the world doesn’t have to be so brutal”.
You’d become a hardline religious extremist, torture your own people, and massacre civilians in cold blood?
Weird thing to admit to man.
I’m not religious so no, and I made no mention of religion. Israel was forged by hard-line religious extremists as well but is technically a secular nation.
You should look into every revolution on earth, 98% of which will include religious extremists. Your point is idiotic, the American revolution had religious extremists lol.
Hamas is explicitly a jihadist regime. Do you… not know that?
I do know that. I don’t think it matters the reason they’re fighting if it’s the same effect either way.
If someone occupied my country, killed my family and took my family land I can’t say I’d react any different.
???
You’re being tedious. You know what I meant and notably hamas is not the only dog in this fight buddy. The narrative is it’s hamas because they’re religious extremists and it tends to discount the fact that regardless of their intent or reasoning the effect is the save, armed defense of Gaza. Without hamas the place would have been annexed 30 years ago.
shows u have no clue what ur talking about. Israel wasn’t forged by religion extremists, on contrary. I will never understand people like u who talk with such confidence about matters they have no clue about.
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nice personal attack, maybe because facts are not at your side? fake news, half truths, and propoganda is all I get from u. good luck with that I’m out
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Where is Gaza’s military allowed to be?
Certainly not at Israeli music festivals
Again people lose sight of the fact that regardless of hamas actions, that doesn’t justify the killing of thousands of kids and families that are taking shelter in the hospital.
If anything, the medical staff and families are also hostages and they shouldn’t be killed either.
People kept arguing about the tunnel and the hospital ignoring the genocidal killing of Palestinians.
Tunnels or Hamas using the biggest and maybe only hospital Doesn’t justify the bombing of the hospital while people still getting treated from other bombing…
Let’s be accurate here. Thousands have died in Gaza as a result of this conflict, but Israel clearly did not kill thousands at Shifa Hospital.
You’re right, the hospital bombed itself.
Hamas surrenders, releases hostages and it’s done. But Hamas is the one pushing this war and they’re using the suffering of their own people to push propaganda - and people like yourself support their efforts.
If Hamas surrenders, Israel will simply compete the genocide they’re in the middle of.
They have literally no chance to win while causing great suffering on everyone around them.
I don’t know how a sane person could advocate for HAMAS to continue their terrorist actions.
Alas Lemmy is a shitshow in this regard. Not sure if Reddit is the same but the vibe here makes me barf
Nobody is supporting Hamas. They’re saying that there’s no justification for the genocide that Israel is engaging in.
It doesn’t matter what either side has done when the response is to murder children. It’s all unjustifiable.
well if an ant bite kills your mom and you go and poison bomb the whole colony, then the surviving ants come bite and kill your dad. are you gonna just let the ants keep killing your family or are you gonna poison bomb the whole colony again
this is just an analogy (works for the nukes in japan too) at this point both sides are shitty and idek how to have a take about it anymore.
Yes let’s reduce this conflict to ant extermination, can’t see any problem with that analogy…
as far as analogies go, comparing Palestinians to ants to be exterminated is a bit too on the nose, don’t you think?
Reddit is a Zionist mouthpiece.
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That take is so stupid I won’t even bother sorry
It is certainly better to kill Israeli soldiers than it is to not kill them. Peace has been tried for over 30 years, but Israel has refused. It’s about time Palestine started fighting back. Genociders do not listen to anything short of warfare and terrorism.
Israel has refused? Israel is the one side that negotiated and offered multiple solutions to the conflict lmao
Yeah, any solution that isnt “Israel gives back the land they stole and stops genociding Gaza”.
Dude what are you on about? Israel offered land.
If you think what Hamas is doing now is the better course you’re just absolutely deluded
As opposed to the heavy resistance Hamas is currently putting up?
If Israel wanted a genocide they could easily accomplish it. They clearly do not. This entire line of argumentation is beyond stupid.
What genocide are you talking about? About the non-existent one against Palestine? How come they are under genocide when their population literally doubled over the last 70 years?
Can I ask you whether you support Hamas and their actions? Do you consider them terrorists?
Are you aware that Israel doesn’t need to literally kill every palestinian in order to succeed at genocide? Do you think the Holocaust wasn’t a genocide?
I don’t give a fuck about Hamas, Palestine should fight back against the genocidal state by any means necessary. Nothing Hamas has ever even been claimed to have done is worse than genocide, so criticizing them at all is a logical fallacy. If palestine thinks incorporating terrorism into their war effort is necessary, I’m not arrogant enough to claim I know better. Every repercussion of this war on both sides is the fault of Israel, just like was true of Nazi Germany.
I know that for genocide you don’t have to kill the whole population. Issue is that during the genocide, population goes down. During holocaust, 1/3 of the jews were killed and the population of jews was 30% smaller at the end of the genocide. This is not happening with Palestinians as their population literally doubled and there has never been a significant dip in their numbers. So no, Israel is not a genocidal state.
In the second paragraph you are finding excuses for Palestine for fighting genocide (why by the way doesn’t exist). Hamas is a terrorist organisation which does not care about Palestine at all. They are only capable of killing Jews, tying opposition to cars and dragging them around. They were also the ones who broke the ceasefire and made the population of Gaza so radical that no one wants to have anything with them. Even PLO rather stays away from Gaza. I am honestly shocked how can you support terrorism and blame Israel for everything. You also ignore the fact that Hamas is not Palestine.
So if Israel kills 2 million Palestinians, but elsewhere 3 million are born, that is still genocide. Also, source on their population going up? You mean like world wide or something? Certainly not in Gaza. No, Hamas did not violate a ceasefire. Laying seige to an open air prison for 20 years does not count as ceasing fire. Hamas attacked Israel in retaliation to them getting worse and worse.
Israel never killed 2 million palestinians. The number is far lower. Stop spreading bullshit.
Population in Gaza went up throughout the time. It’s literally one of the most densely populated areas in the world (https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/gaza-strip/).
Furthermore, Gaza is not Israel’s open air prison and it was Hamas who broke the ceasefire.
I honestly see no reason in this discussion when you keep inventing random facts and when you support terrorist organizations. This is truly unbelievable.
they haven’t actually bombed al shifa, or any hospital for that matter.
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okay, can you link any evidence of hospitals being bombed?
https://www.doctorswithoutborders.ca/gaza-attack-on-ambulance-outside-al-shifa-hospital/
Literally Doctors Without Borders explaining that an ambulance right outside the hospital was blasted during bombings.
I’ll remark the words of the other user:
Personally I would feel more shame about lying about the deaths of civilians.
Can you open any news article not written by the IDF?
Liar.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/14/gaza-unlawful-israeli-hospital-strikes-worsen-health-crisis
If I was this ignorant I would simply shut the fuck up.
I mean, I read through what you posted and it literally never says Israel bombed hospitals.
HRW just cites a Tweet by “WHO in occupied Palestine” that is very non-specific while sounding specific.
The relevant bits from the Tweet used as the primary source by HRW:
“We are horrified at the latest reports of attacks on and in the vicinity of Al-Shifa Hospital, Al-Rantisi Naser Pediatric Hospital, Al-Quds Hospital, and others in Gaza city and northern Gaza, killing many, including children.”
“Over the past 36 days, WHO has recorded at least 137 attacks on health care in Gaza, resulting in 521 deaths and 686 injuries, including 16 deaths and 38 injuries of health workers on duty.”
If I thought I knew better from my seat in a chair what was going on in Gaza than the humanitarian organizations on the ground there then I would simply log off and touch grass.
I mean, when you are calling people liars because they don’t agree with you, especially when your own sources don’t support what you say, I’m pretty sure that’s a sign you need to log off and touch grass.
Is it possible Israel has bombed hospitals in Gaza? Certainly.
Did you provide proof? No.
Clearly the UNRWA and the doctors at MSF don’t know what they’re talking about. Only the IDF does.
Clearly you can’t even read or are mentally broken. The link above doesn’t say the hospital itself was bombed. Go to sleep, it must be late in the morning, tankie
Keep it civil. Removed.
Super cool how lying about hospitals not being bombed is “civil” but calling it out for the lie that it is somehow isn’t.
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/times-of-israel/
Bias Rating: LEFT-CENTER
Factual Reporting: HIGH
Country: Israel
Press Freedom Rank: MODERATE FREEDOM
Media Type: Website
Traffic/Popularity: High Traffic
MBFC Credibility Rating: HIGH CREDIBILITY
This needs to be a bot, this is great context around the media outlets.
It’s really not. MBFC is run by a single guy. It’s methodology is basically worthless. It’s basically one dude’s opinion on what news sources he likes to read.
What do we know about that guy? Not much. He happens to share the same name as a very prominent lawyer/professor, which makes finding details about him very challenging.
Quit spreading FUD. It’s not just one guy, the founder has a whole team listed on the website and a clear methodology. It’s in the about section.
You’re just salty because the website isn’t super pro Chinese Communist Party.
Have you looked at their methodology? It wouldn’t pass a basic university-level writing course.
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If they’re releasing surveillance footage, expect more to come out. They have already announced that Noa Marciano was executed inside the hospital - most likely on camera.
Also note that they are sharing much more with the US and EU than they are making public. It will likely include surveillance footage tagged with facial recognition of every senior Hamas member who walked through the hospital.
One of the hostages is visibly wounded in his arm and is brought on a hospital bed, while the second is forcefully dragged into the hospital. “These findings prove that the Hamas terror organization used Shifa Hospital on the day of the massacre itself as terror infrastructure,” the IDF says.
TIL bringing a wounded civilian in for treatment makes the treating hospital “terror infrastructure”.
Further images released by the IDF from the surveillance cameras at Shifa show Hamas terrorists inside the hospital, and outside the rooms of the hostages, as well as stolen IDF vehicles brought to the medical center.
It wasn’t a wounded person that was the problem.
In an evening press conference, IDF Spokesman Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari says the two wounded hostages were later taken by Hamas to hideouts, and that the Red Cross was unable to visit them. He says their locations are currently unknown.
You’re going to just disagree with the IDF spokesman here?
Okay, let’s say you’re a cop and you have an injured prisoner but no car. You grab a vehicle off the street and bring the guy to the nearest hospital. You don’t want your prisoner to escape, so you stand guard outside the room while he’s getting treated, then take him into custody.
You see the problem here? In one viewpoint, it’s a soldier responsibly getting treatment for a prisoner; in another viewpoint, the entire hospital complex had enemy soldiers in it at some time and therefore deserves to be razed to the ground.
Now substitute prisoner with kidnapped hostage you have no right to touch and that you most likely shot yourself.
Yes perception is a thing, way to rephrase their point in a much dumber way.
The police all over the world shoot people all the time and then bring them to the hospital to get fixed. There’s nothing suspicious about it.
The wounded guy? Sure thing. But the other one didn’t seem to be too injured to be taken to a hospital for treatment
In an evening press conference, IDF Spokesman Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari says the two wounded hostages were later taken by Hamas to hideouts, and that the Red Cross was unable to visit them. He says their locations are currently unknown.
They were both wounded
If you take two prisoners and don’t want to split up your forces, then you bring both of them to the hospital, get the injured one treated, and take both of them away.
Dude’s never broken a bone and it shows
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You see, the problem is that you’re trying to apply logic and reasoning.
well this community suddenly became very quiet.
Israel’s right wing is a bunch of genocidal monsters who are just as evil as Hamas but much better funded.
Happy now?
At least you are now equating Hamas to Israel in terms of morality instead of glorifying them, so that’s progress
I never have. My position hasn’t changed a bit.
i didn’t know israel is beheading people with garden hoes :o
You think little children dying as their blood drains away with their limbs blown away, or their life slowly fadding as their bodies are crushed by the rubble of what moments ago was their home or being burn through till their internal organs fail in complete total panic by a piece of burning white phosporous whose fire they cannot stopped, from a round that hit their schoolyard, is any better?!
Is them being arabic-speaking muslims that makes their horrible deaths acceptable in your eyes, even while the deaths of jewish hebrew speaking children are not?!
It’s really hard to see any other reason than the most disgustingly extreme psychopatic racism for somebody to justify the horrible murder of children using the murder of other children by people whose only relation is being from the same ethnic group.
You think little children dying as their blood drains away with their limbs blown away, or their life slowly fadding as their bodies are crushed by the rubble of what moments ago was their home or being burn through till their internal organs fail in complete total panic by a piece of burning white phosporous whose fire they cannot stopped, from a round that hit their schoolyard, is any better?!
Yes. It is fucking weird that you don’t.
Well, at least you openly admit you think one kind of horrible deaths for children is better than a different kind.
That’s pretty honest for a sociopath.
Literally everyone thinks some kinds of deaths are better than others. Dying slowly and painfully due to someone’s maliciousness is generally considered among the worst.
You’re weird for trying to make this some sort of gotcha.
Literally only people very high in the sociopath end of the spectrum would think one gruesome kind of child murder justifies a different kind of gruesome child murder, to the point of using one to justify the other in an argument genuinelly believing other human beings will be swayed by that.
People in the normal human range within the sociopathy spectrum neither think “an eye for an eye” applies to the murdering of children - no matter the method used - nor think other people can be swayed to accept child murder by pointing out that child murders were commited by people only related to the former children by etnicity.
In fact normal people don’t even think one kind of child murder justifies the other kind of child murder even when the latter children have direct family relations to the murderers of the former.
You need to be quite the sociopath to merelly think somebody murdering children justifies killing their kids, and you need to be extremelly sociopathic to think somebody murdering children justifies killing kids of the same etnic group.
People whose psychological makeup is such that they trully believe child murder justifies child murder and, worse, that others think the same, need professional help, deseperatelly so.
So you’re a believer in untermensch? Amusing conflict to casually bring that up for.
No, they’re doing it with bombs. So much more civilized!
So collateral damage is just as bad as putting a baby inside an oven?
You said that, not me.
It really hasn’t, it’s generic un geolocated video yet again and Israel is known to fake video. At the same time it’s not at all proof of their nonsense claims.
Fake news!
I mean no, it’s an unsubstantiated claim.
pro-genocide folks breath sigh of relieve when their support of hospital bombing is finally justified*on second thought, i’ll just not bring myself down to your level.
uh-huh~ and your proof?
What proof?
of your claims that they bombed hospitals
Waiting on their bosses for the right propaganda response
There’s a bunch of pro Palestinian accounts that all only post comments about the war and joined about the same time (not at Reddit API influx). The mods should ban clear propaganda accounts
The dumbest part is that it says one hostage was brought to the hospital to be killed.
Bro just kill her in whatever tunnel you’re in… Why drag her to the hospital?
It has been said, they brought them to treat them for injuries
Hmmm pretty sure the IDF officially made that statement
You trust the IDF after they’ve lied so many times?
🤣
The Iranian propaganda teams aren’t sure what to say yet. They must be sweating now. I’m guessing some whataboutism as counter
Hah apparently the spin is they were taken to the hospital for humanitarian reasons. After all the rape and murder the kidnappers decided to take their hostages to the hospital for treatment clearly under duress. Yep such nice guys. Definitely what they’d do.
the hostages were in the hospital that got bombed?
I hope they’re okay…
Yes, they were trying to free them, obviously.
Is this according to the same Israel that called a water reservoir an “opening into the Hamas tunnels?”
The same one that released a faked video of a “nurse from al-Shifa?”
To be fair, Al Jazeera is blatantly anti-Israel, so I wouldn’t trust their analysis without other corroborating sources. Regardless, the evidence the IDF presented for that particular video was far from conclusive, so it’s certainly possible that particular entrance wasn’t to the Hamas tunnel network.
I also don’t doubt that nurse video is fake, but the source of the video is far from definitive. Many parties in this conflict benefit from muddling the waters with fake videos.
As if being anti-Israel means that Al Jazeera throws journalistic integrity into the wind? If the facts are valid, they’re valid regardless of what the spin being put on them is.
Gee, I sure wonder why Al Jazeera would be anti-Israel…
Bias needs to be taken into account, but it does not invalidate good reporting on its own. It’s the same reason I don’t immediately believe all statements from the IDF. They are a party in the conflict and extremely biased. They are however a valuable source of information and their claims should be considered. I would also rank the credibility of the IDF over the credibility of Hamas.
Other comment got reported, but still doesn’t change the fact that you’re comparing two bad sources and trying to pick one that’s less bad.
If Hamas starts releasing verifiably false videos to Western audiences, then I’ll discredit that too.
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You don’t have to look far for fake Hamas videos. Are you kidding? https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/live-blog/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-rcna120978
Hamas bombed their own hospital and then said the IDF did it and everyone ate it up
Saying you blindly believe Hamas, a known terrorist organization that says that all Jews worldwide should be wiped out, is really taking the mask off. You should be ashamed of yourself. It’s fine to assume Israel lies, but to blindly trust Hamas is truly moronic. I hope you wake up to reality one day
Not a great example. All recent reporting was that the hospital you’re talking about was hit by a Hezbollah rocket, not Hamas. Not surprising that Hamas would assume, after concluding it wasn’t them, that it was the IDF, and it not be an outright lie.
As if being anti-Israel means that Al Jazeera throws journalistic integrity into the wind?
Actually yes, that’s exactly what they’ve done time and time again.
How, when?
Well the most obvious example is the strike on that hospital killing 500 that ended up being a failed PIJ rocket landing on the hospital parking lot killing 10-20 people.
As far as I’m aware there is no conclusive evidence that it was a PIJ rocket. You can only really believe that if you actually trust the IDF.
You rather believe Hamas that it was an Israeli rocket when all available evidence verified by multiple governments claims to the contrary?
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The IDF’s lying track record is bad.
If only impartial middle ground existed.
Which one? Name them 😌
This will hopefully put to rest any notion that Hamas hasn’t been using civilian infrastructure as shields.
Isn’t this just bringing in wounded hostages for treatment? What do you expect hostage takers to do with wounded hostages exactly?
No, it fucking isn’t. They weren’t there for treatment.
What I expect from hostage takers is brutality, murder, and the intentional targeting of civilians, which is what they did. If Hamas wants to be taken seriously as a government, and not what they are - a terrorist organization that is as bad, if not worse, for Palestinians as the oppression from Israel - then I expect something else: NOT TAKING HOSTAGES.
Lol, nobody’s saying they’re a proper government. Everyone agrees they’re terrorists. All I’m saying is that a hospital treating hostages doesn’t make it part of a terrorist entreprise.
They weren’t there for treatment. They were there for the tunnels, into which they forcibly dragged those hostages. Who are dead now.
From the article:
One of the hostages is visibly wounded in his arm and is brought on a hospital bed, while the second is forcefully dragged into the hospital And In an evening press conference, IDF Spokesman Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari says the two wounded hostages were later taken by Hamas to hideouts, and that the Red Cross was unable to visit them. He says their locations are currently unknown.
So, you’re wrong about both assertions. The IDF themselves say they were both wounded, and that after treatment they were moved to a different location. The source also doesn’t indicate they’re both dead now, you’re just making shit up.
OK, I’ll take my lumps. You’re right, I missed that when I skimmed the article. I was wrong.
That said, this is still a situation in which Hamas injured two civilians, abducted them, forcibly dragged one of them into a hospital that is now clearly known to have been at least partially a Hamas front, and is still holding them against their will (assuming they are still alive). The fact that they aren’t known to have committed the final atrocity - yet - to these two hostages does not magically make them the good guys in this.
Nobody’s calling Hamas the good guys. We’re pushing back on the narrative that the hospital itself is somehow involved and thus exempt from the normal protections in war.
Hospitals will treat anyone that comes in by default, and in the case of a Gazan hospital, what choice would they even have anyway? You can’t call the authorities if Hamas are the (de facto) authorities. You treat the hostage and get them to GTFO as fast as possible before you get bombed.
You are falling for the IDF narrative that says all Palestinians are Hamas, as if they have any kind of choice in the matter.
Hamas are not the good guys. That doesn’t make the hospital the bad guys, and it doesn’t make everyone in Gaza complicit. Your inability to separate different actors in this scenario is limiting your perspective and objectivity.
I some mob enforcer shot some guy “to teach him a lesson” and then brough him to a Hospital so that he wouldn’t die, would that make the Hospital a “Mob HQ” and justify a military attack on it that killed innocents being treated and working there?!
There is no such thing as Guilt By Association except in the “they’re all the same” of racist-logic, so one wonders how exactly anybody who is not a racist could ever go from “IDF video of Hamas bringing hostages for treatment in a Hospital” to “This justifies the IDF’s military attack on that hospital and associated civilian deaths”.
What do you think POWs are if not hostages?
POWs are SOLDIERS. Jesus fucking Christ, how the hell do you sleep at night? These hostages? They’re civilians. They’re you. They’re me. They’re just people, and Hamas stole them out of their country and is forcing them to stay with them.
Defending that is sick.
Israel is not the good guys here, either. The oppression they’ve inflicted on Gaza is terrible. But that can be true at the same time as it’s true that abducting civilians - after murdering a whole bunch of them - is also terrible.
You do know that according to Israel half of the hostages are soldiers, right?
You do know that means half of them aren’t, right?
Jesus Christ, stop with the apologetics for kidnapping and murdering civilians! You can criticize Israel’s response without trying to make what Hamas did - and is still doing - acceptable.
Let them die duh
Let them continue bombing and terrorizing Israel then huh
Wait, now the hostages are part of Hamas as well?
Even if it’s true, I can’t believe anything Israel says at this point.
If there is a Hamas bunker under a hospital it was built with the full knowledge and support of netenyahu.
