The prime minister said he won’t allow the Palestinian Authority to take over Gaza, his sharpest comments yet against the White House plan for after the war.
“Never” is a big word, and almost always unjustified. Various Israeli governments have looked for peace with Palestinians at times, just as many Palestinians have wanted peace with Israel.
Neither Palestinian nor Israeli populations are a monolith, and their attitudes and opinions change over time and in response to each other’s actions. But people are endlessly adaptable. That’s why diplomacy and a two-state solution are still possible.
Anyone who says “Israel will never seek peace,” or “Palestinians will always be terrorists” condemns both sides to ongoing conflict.
The majority of the Israeli population agrees that Netanyahu and his conservative coalition needs to go. Hamas also needs to go. Both of these governments are full of extremists, and the current conflagration is the result of two diametricaly-opposed extremist governments going head-to-head. Netanyahu wanted it and so did Hamas.
I’m wondering what kind of peace they think they’re asking for. Israel has a buffet of oppressive laws that deny Palestinians access to water, land, and infrastructure, and allow the IDF to raze villages at their discretion and detain people indefinitely without evidence, all under the pretext of fighting terrorism and protecting national security. Meanwhile Israel has been the occupying force in this region for decades. Remember they are, by definition, not on the defensive. These laws actually do discriminate against Palestinians, and make life very hard for them.
I wonder if this is the kind of peace where Israel thinks “why won’t they simply accept our oppressive laws and let us displace them and take their land? Why are people fighting back all the time? We just want peace!”
I cannot stress enough that settlers and housing developments come at the same time as the military, and they work together. Like it’s not even a terrorism thing. They are just chasing Palestinians around with housing developments to justify forcing them out. As far as I can see the only way Israel’s operation could be peaceful is if the Palestinians literally just accepted their widespread displacement, dispossession and sometimes even mass murder, but we know that’s not how peace works :)
My understanding of past negotiations regarding the the two-state solution is that they proposed a “path to statehood” for Palestinians, not a one-and-done solution. It was a “give-a-little, get-a-little” incremental approach where the Palestinian proto-state would gradually gain more independence as it developed effective an effective governmental infrastructure, and as it could satisfy Israel that it could control terrorist elements within Palestine and resist being controlled by Iran and its proxies. Initially, Israel would control the borders of the Palestinian proto-state and have a military presence, but would gradually give those functions over to the Palestinian government if peace could be sustained.
Unfortunately, there are extremists on both sides who found it rather easy to smash that fragile and tentative method of peace-making. Also, of course, Iran provides non-stop support for the Palestinian factions that want to continue the conflict. And the Israeli far right does the same, probably with the support of American evangelicals who think the Rapture is just around the corner. It is a sad state of affairs for those who actually want peace.
Edit: I probably responded too quickly because your edit came to me after I already submitted my response.
To address your edit, yes, I agree with you that Israeli actions since about the mid-2000s with the aggressive expansion of settlements has only made the situation worse. It is my belief that both Hamas and Israeli right-wing governments have had the same goal since the failure of the two-state solution negotiations, and that is to provoke violence, make the other side look bad, and gain the support of sponsors and the international community.
The minimum requirement an Israeli government would have to reach to seriously be described as “looking for peace” is to formally and unilaterally recognise Palestine as a sovereign nation and to treat it as such under the bounds of international law, or to formally and unilaterally recognise Palestine as part of Isreal and the people living there as full citizens of Isreal with the full rights of any other citizen. That is the minimum.
No Israeli government has done that, no Israeli government has seriously sought peace.
Look up the past negotiations on the two-state solution. The method proposed was to first recognize a Palestinian proto-state with Israel still controlling military and borders. Over time, as the Palestinian proto-state strengthened, showed it could control terrorism, and avoid becoming an Iranian proxy and base for another attack on Israel, the Palestinian state would become a fully sovereign nation.
What you are suggesting is impractical, certainly in Gaza. Gaza is ruled by a different government from the West Bank, and Hamas is like Hezbollah. They are a militant Iranian proxy that wants to destroy Israel, and they’ve proved it yet again.
Now, Israel has certainly NOT sought peace since Likud came to power. The events of October 7 have been brewing for over 15 years, during which time neither Hamas nor Israel has sought real peace. They’ve both been ratcheting up the pressure.
So, I’m not sure what your point is. There was a point during the Camp David talks that a path to a two-state solution seemed close. Unfortunately, the talks failed, but clearly the Israeli and Palestinian governments were literally seeking peace and willing to make concessions. Now, relations are so bad and Palestinian governance in Gaza is in such a shambles that your proposed solution would be a disaster, for both Israel and the Palestinians.
The actual practical path is to return to negotiations aimed at incrementally building a two-state solution. That means the Israeli far-right coalition government has to go, the Jewish settlements in the West Bank have to go, and it also means that Hamas and others just bent on terrorism have to go. Until that happens, they can’t return to practical negotiations. I mean, that’s obvious, right? Extremist Israelis want to eliminate the Palestinians, and extremist Palestinians want to eliminate Israel. Both have to go. Peace negotiations with someone who doesn’t want peace is pointless.
Maybe October 7 and Israel’s response will prove so horrific that it will cause both populations to vote moderates back into power who will genuinely get back to the negotiating table and not give up.
Look up the past negotiations on the two-state solution. The method proposed was to first recognize a Palestinian proto-state with Israel still controlling military and borders. Over time, as the Palestinian proto-state strengthened, showed it could control terrorism, and avoid becoming an Iranian proxy and base for another attack on Israel, the Palestinian state would become a fully sovereign nation.
That doesn’t sound like sovereignty, that sounds like unilateral Israeli control.
What you are suggesting is impractical, certainly in Gaza. Gaza is ruled by a different government from the West Bank, and Hamas is like Hezbollah. They are a militant Iranian proxy that wants to destroy Israel, and they’ve proved it yet again.
Imagine if Russia used this reasoning in Ukraine.
Hamas nor Israel has sought real peace.
Hamas has every right to resist foreign occupation. It’s not their responsibility to submit to Israeli domination for the sake of peace.
The actual practical path is to return to negotiations aimed at incrementally building a two-state solution. That means the Israeli far-right coalition government has to go, the Jewish settlements in the West Bank have to go, and it also means that Hamas and others just bent on terrorism have to go. Until that happens, they can’t return to practical negotiations. I mean, that’s obvious, right? Extremist Israelis want to eliminate the Palestinians, and extremist Palestinians want to eliminate Israel. Both have to go. Peace negotiations with someone who doesn’t want peace is pointless.
Again, read this and imagine proposing it in Ukraine.
Maybe October 7 and Israel’s response will prove so horrific that it will cause both populations to vote moderates back into power who will genuinely get back to the negotiating table and not give up.
Brutalising and imiserating people only makes them more radical and militant
That’s a very hard line stance you have there. That sort of uncompromising attitude is exactly what both Hamas and the Israeli right-wing have been advocating for years. Sticking uncompromisingly to your principles makes for great drama, but is really the opposite of effective diplomacy.
I wouldn’t want to apply the process proposed for Palestine and Israel to Ukraine and Russia. I’m not sure why you would want me to defend that. I don’t agree with that solution for Ukraine. It’s a completely different situation. Again, this where I think you are going wrong and perhaps misunderstanding me. People who just want to talk about principles and which side is more morally correct are the ones moving the two sides farther apart. Think realpolitik.
Like I said, uncompromising principles make for great drama, but you need an actual realistic plan. How exactly would this uncompromising stance you propose work? Do you think the Arab countries will come to Palestine’s rescue militarily? Not happening. Do you think it will be like South Africa and the whole world will sanction Israel into submission? That’s not happening either. It’s not the 1980s anymore. Bono and the gang aren’t going to solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. What is the actual realistic alternative to the two-state incremental path I outlined above?
I wouldn’t want to apply the process proposed for Palestine and Israel to Ukraine and Russia. It’s a completely different situation.
Why not? I can only think of one difference, and that’s race.
Think realpolitik.
I wasn’t the one trying to sugercoat “Palestine needs to surrender to Israeli domination” as “both sides need to come together to negotiate peace”.
How exactly would this uncompromising stance you propose work? Do you think the Arab countries will come to Palestine’s rescue militarily? Not happening. Do you think it will be like South Africa and the whole world will sanction Israel into submission? That’s not happening either. It’s not the 1980s anymore. Bono and the gang aren’t going to solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
You realize you’ve gone from “both sides need to come together to work towards peace” to “There is nothing that can be done to stop or even temper Israel’s oppression; Palestine needs to throw itself on Israel’s mercy.”
Seems to me though, support for Israel is at an all time low and the USA is slowly falling apart. Armed resistance seems to be working.
So this is exactly what we’ve been saying from the beginning. They were never looking for peace. They just need more land to annex.
Lebensraum, if you will.
“Never” is a big word, and almost always unjustified. Various Israeli governments have looked for peace with Palestinians at times, just as many Palestinians have wanted peace with Israel.
Neither Palestinian nor Israeli populations are a monolith, and their attitudes and opinions change over time and in response to each other’s actions. But people are endlessly adaptable. That’s why diplomacy and a two-state solution are still possible.
Anyone who says “Israel will never seek peace,” or “Palestinians will always be terrorists” condemns both sides to ongoing conflict.
The majority of the Israeli population agrees that Netanyahu and his conservative coalition needs to go. Hamas also needs to go. Both of these governments are full of extremists, and the current conflagration is the result of two diametricaly-opposed extremist governments going head-to-head. Netanyahu wanted it and so did Hamas.
I’m wondering what kind of peace they think they’re asking for. Israel has a buffet of oppressive laws that deny Palestinians access to water, land, and infrastructure, and allow the IDF to raze villages at their discretion and detain people indefinitely without evidence, all under the pretext of fighting terrorism and protecting national security. Meanwhile Israel has been the occupying force in this region for decades. Remember they are, by definition, not on the defensive. These laws actually do discriminate against Palestinians, and make life very hard for them.
I wonder if this is the kind of peace where Israel thinks “why won’t they simply accept our oppressive laws and let us displace them and take their land? Why are people fighting back all the time? We just want peace!”
I cannot stress enough that settlers and housing developments come at the same time as the military, and they work together. Like it’s not even a terrorism thing. They are just chasing Palestinians around with housing developments to justify forcing them out. As far as I can see the only way Israel’s operation could be peaceful is if the Palestinians literally just accepted their widespread displacement, dispossession and sometimes even mass murder, but we know that’s not how peace works :)
My understanding of past negotiations regarding the the two-state solution is that they proposed a “path to statehood” for Palestinians, not a one-and-done solution. It was a “give-a-little, get-a-little” incremental approach where the Palestinian proto-state would gradually gain more independence as it developed effective an effective governmental infrastructure, and as it could satisfy Israel that it could control terrorist elements within Palestine and resist being controlled by Iran and its proxies. Initially, Israel would control the borders of the Palestinian proto-state and have a military presence, but would gradually give those functions over to the Palestinian government if peace could be sustained.
Unfortunately, there are extremists on both sides who found it rather easy to smash that fragile and tentative method of peace-making. Also, of course, Iran provides non-stop support for the Palestinian factions that want to continue the conflict. And the Israeli far right does the same, probably with the support of American evangelicals who think the Rapture is just around the corner. It is a sad state of affairs for those who actually want peace.
Edit: I probably responded too quickly because your edit came to me after I already submitted my response.
To address your edit, yes, I agree with you that Israeli actions since about the mid-2000s with the aggressive expansion of settlements has only made the situation worse. It is my belief that both Hamas and Israeli right-wing governments have had the same goal since the failure of the two-state solution negotiations, and that is to provoke violence, make the other side look bad, and gain the support of sponsors and the international community.
The minimum requirement an Israeli government would have to reach to seriously be described as “looking for peace” is to formally and unilaterally recognise Palestine as a sovereign nation and to treat it as such under the bounds of international law, or to formally and unilaterally recognise Palestine as part of Isreal and the people living there as full citizens of Isreal with the full rights of any other citizen. That is the minimum.
No Israeli government has done that, no Israeli government has seriously sought peace.
Look up the past negotiations on the two-state solution. The method proposed was to first recognize a Palestinian proto-state with Israel still controlling military and borders. Over time, as the Palestinian proto-state strengthened, showed it could control terrorism, and avoid becoming an Iranian proxy and base for another attack on Israel, the Palestinian state would become a fully sovereign nation.
What you are suggesting is impractical, certainly in Gaza. Gaza is ruled by a different government from the West Bank, and Hamas is like Hezbollah. They are a militant Iranian proxy that wants to destroy Israel, and they’ve proved it yet again.
Now, Israel has certainly NOT sought peace since Likud came to power. The events of October 7 have been brewing for over 15 years, during which time neither Hamas nor Israel has sought real peace. They’ve both been ratcheting up the pressure.
So, I’m not sure what your point is. There was a point during the Camp David talks that a path to a two-state solution seemed close. Unfortunately, the talks failed, but clearly the Israeli and Palestinian governments were literally seeking peace and willing to make concessions. Now, relations are so bad and Palestinian governance in Gaza is in such a shambles that your proposed solution would be a disaster, for both Israel and the Palestinians.
The actual practical path is to return to negotiations aimed at incrementally building a two-state solution. That means the Israeli far-right coalition government has to go, the Jewish settlements in the West Bank have to go, and it also means that Hamas and others just bent on terrorism have to go. Until that happens, they can’t return to practical negotiations. I mean, that’s obvious, right? Extremist Israelis want to eliminate the Palestinians, and extremist Palestinians want to eliminate Israel. Both have to go. Peace negotiations with someone who doesn’t want peace is pointless.
Maybe October 7 and Israel’s response will prove so horrific that it will cause both populations to vote moderates back into power who will genuinely get back to the negotiating table and not give up.
That doesn’t sound like sovereignty, that sounds like unilateral Israeli control.
Imagine if Russia used this reasoning in Ukraine.
Hamas has every right to resist foreign occupation. It’s not their responsibility to submit to Israeli domination for the sake of peace.
Again, read this and imagine proposing it in Ukraine.
Brutalising and imiserating people only makes them more radical and militant
That’s a very hard line stance you have there. That sort of uncompromising attitude is exactly what both Hamas and the Israeli right-wing have been advocating for years. Sticking uncompromisingly to your principles makes for great drama, but is really the opposite of effective diplomacy.
It shouldn’t be a handline stance, and in most contexts it wouldn’t be.
Again, let’s here you apply your principles to Ukraine here.
I wouldn’t want to apply the process proposed for Palestine and Israel to Ukraine and Russia. I’m not sure why you would want me to defend that. I don’t agree with that solution for Ukraine. It’s a completely different situation. Again, this where I think you are going wrong and perhaps misunderstanding me. People who just want to talk about principles and which side is more morally correct are the ones moving the two sides farther apart. Think realpolitik.
Like I said, uncompromising principles make for great drama, but you need an actual realistic plan. How exactly would this uncompromising stance you propose work? Do you think the Arab countries will come to Palestine’s rescue militarily? Not happening. Do you think it will be like South Africa and the whole world will sanction Israel into submission? That’s not happening either. It’s not the 1980s anymore. Bono and the gang aren’t going to solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. What is the actual realistic alternative to the two-state incremental path I outlined above?
Why not? I can only think of one difference, and that’s race.
I wasn’t the one trying to sugercoat “Palestine needs to surrender to Israeli domination” as “both sides need to come together to negotiate peace”.
You realize you’ve gone from “both sides need to come together to work towards peace” to “There is nothing that can be done to stop or even temper Israel’s oppression; Palestine needs to throw itself on Israel’s mercy.”
Seems to me though, support for Israel is at an all time low and the USA is slowly falling apart. Armed resistance seems to be working.