Why is it that compared to other mental illness’s like depression, ADHD, autism and anxiety people seem to be so hostile to NPD? I always see things about ‘mental health awareness’ yet this is never applied to personality disorders.
Just look up “narcissism”, “NPD” or “narcissistic personality disorder” and the results are about how dangerous people with NPD are and how to spot somebody with NPD or if your ex boyfriend is a narcissist etc… etc…
I was watching this video earlier by a YouTube user ‘ShortFatOtaku’ called “Low IQ Twitter Discourse Awards!” and there was this one guy on twitter who said that if you claim advocate for the mentally ill you such do so with personality disorders as well. A statement I completely agree with:
https://youtu.be/3EJedJ8MhNA YouTube
ShortFatOtaku response with “wow your going to let that narcissist kill you and take everything from you?” I shouldn’t have to explain how bad faith and unhinged that is.
Why do people think this way about narcissists? Having NPD doesn’t make someone an inherently bad person. As someone who has NPD I haven’t abused or manipulated anyone ever. Sure, I struggle with empathy, I have to make an effort to think about other people and ok I have a never ending need for validation but that doesn’t mean I’m a bad person I understand I have a problem I didn’t choose to be like this. Manipulation and grandiosity are awful traits that I have but they don’t define me. I’m a good friend, I’m a good sister, I’m a good coworker and there are people out there who benefit from my existence. NPD doesn’t have to define me I’m more then my diagnosis.
As others have written it’s deconstructive towards other people plus NPD are hard to make understand their behaviour is problematic. In their view you are the problem if you have a problem with them. Depression, ADHD and other things do not have that trait. With them you can talk them into therapy and about potential problems they are causing.
You’re doing a lot of generalizing in this post. You seem to think you know though profess of everyone ever diagnosed with NPD.
If you are interested in NPD you could really read up on the topic. If you want to know if you have npd symptoms I would suggest to ask people who you trust and who know you well. Ask them, then listen carefully, and if 3 independent people tell you what they think of you, believe them.
Do not ask them suggestive questions, but try to ask fields or topics that npd people can have symptoms or indicators in.
I already know I have NPD and I’m not risking my friends and family finding out about my diagnosis. You’ve seen the rest of this thread haven’t you? NPD is so stigmatized that it would ruin my social life if it came out. All I have is my social life
I haven’t seen this thread. I read only the top comment, then wrote mine.
If you know you have npd you are about 2000 times better than most people who have it, as you have said it’s not a good thing to be diagnosed with it and yet you acknowledge that you have it. That’s like you are able to acknowledge that you are not unfailable or perfect.
If you really care about your friends and family you should look into therapy.
Thank you for your comment. We need more people like you. People who can see past my diagnosis and understand that I’m a person with flaws like anyone else.
I think the important thing is really just that mental illness doesn’t shield you from accountability for how you impact other people, and for a personality disorder that primarily manifests in traits that harm people, that’s a hard thing to reconcile with that person’s merits. Doesn’t mean you can’t or shouldn’t, just that because you are still responsible for potentially hurting people, and have a disorder that makes you very likely to do so, those things will be very hard for people to square.
Another example is paraphilias. Paraphilias can include things like pedophilia, which manifests in a desire to do something that would subject someone to profound amounts of trauma, the likes of which most of us couldn’t even begin to appreciate. Can someone with such a paraphilia be a good person who is kind, and does not harm people in that way? Yes. Can that person be largely a good person in most contexts, but cause people enormous harm as a result of their paraphilia? Also yes.
In some ways we are all people with conditions that affect who we would be otherwise, and in other ways we are all just people, and conditions are used descriptively to communicate the traits that we have.
At the end of the day, the thing that matters is how you treat people. If you cause people harm, it might be more understandable given the context of a personality disorder, but it doesn’t absolve you of any responsibility. And if you don’t, then you haven’t done anything wrong. And I mean that for each moment in time, each interaction. Humans are messy and complicated, and generally ideas like “good person”, “bad person”, are reductive.
I’m sorry you feel trapped or defined by your diagnosis. That can be a painful place to be. I have a close friend with borderline personality disorder who has at times felt similarly. Only thing that matters is whether you’re an asshole. Only thing that ever has mattered, only thing that ever will.
Edit: just want to be very clear- the fact that it will be hard for people to engage with you purely based on your behaviour in a given interaction is not something you deserve. Its the actions and how they affect people that count, even if I can empathize with why it’d be hard for people
for a personality disorder that primarily manifests in traits that harm people
Drag thinks you’ve misunderstood the diagnostic criteria. The criteria specifically refer to manifestations of the traits that harm the patient. Traits that harm others aren’t counted as diagnostically significant. Like, take the “excessive need for admiration” criterion. That one’s only medically significant if the patient is suffering because of their need. If they’re abusing other people into praising them and getting what they want, then they don’t have NPD.
For example, Donald Trump has the traits as a layperson would understand them, but not as a psychiatrist would understand them. Because they’re not hurting him. Doctors only care if the patient is suffering. No pain, no disorder.
That’s not true. NPD diagnostic criteria in the DSM-5-TR (latest version) still contains manipulation efforts and similar behavior. Quote:
A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
- Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements).
- Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love.
- Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions).
- Requires excessive admiration.
- Has a sense of entitlement (i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations).
- Is interpersonally exploitative (i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends).
- Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others.
- Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her.
- Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.
So… Donald Trump probably meets criteria for a narcissistic personality disorder diagnosis (if he ever agrees to start a “mental health journey”).
And it’s true that many disorders need to cause “clinically significant distress”, but personality disorders can be diagnosed even if they don’t cause distress to the person but causes it to others (e.g. ASPD). The DSM had to consider egosyntonic disorders, after all.
All 9 of those criteria only apply if they distress or impair the patient. Also, they’re outdated. That’s the DSM-IV’s criteria. And they’ve been criticised -
The NPD diagnosis in DSM has been criticized for being one-sided and relying primarily on external socially and interpersonally striking and provocative features.
As such, it has failed to capture the full range of narcissistic personality pathology, especially the internal vulnerability and insecurity characterized by severe self-criticism, insecurity, confusion, shame, aloneness, and fear.
Instead, the diagnosis has primarily emphasized external characteristics related to boasted grandiosity, and obviously adverse interpersonal functioning.
That’s why the DSM 5 criteria have more focus on the individual’s impairment and distress:
The essential features of a personality disorder are impairments in personality (self and interpersonal) functioning and pathological personality traits.
To diagnose a narcissistic personality disorder, the following criteria must be met:
A. Significant impairments in personality functioning manifest by:
- Impairments in self-functioning (a or b):
a. Identity: Excessive reference to others for self-definition and self-esteem regulation; exaggerated self-appraisal may be inflated or deflated, or vacillate between extremes; emotional regulation mirrors fluctuations in self-esteem.
b. Self-direction: Goal-setting is based on gaining approval from others; personal standards are unreasonably high to see oneself as exceptional or too low based on a sense of entitlement, often unaware of their own motivations.
- Impairments in interpersonal functioning (a or b):
a. Empathy: Impaired ability to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others; excessively attuned to reactions of others, but only if perceived as relevant to self; over- or underestimate of own effect on others.
b. Intimacy: Relationships largely superficial and exist to serve self-esteem regulation; mutuality constrained by little genuine interest in others‟ experiences and predominance of a need for personal gain
B. Pathological personality traits in the following domain:
- Antagonism, characterized by:
a. Grandiosity: Feelings of entitlement, either overt or covert self-centeredness; firmly holding to the belief that one is better than others, condescending toward others.
b. Attention seeking: Excessive attempts to attract and be the focus of the attention of others; admiration seeking.
C. The impairments in personality functioning and the individual’s personality trait expression are relatively stable across time and consistent across situations.
D. The impairments in personality functioning and the individual’s personality trait expression are not better understood as normative for the individual’s developmental stage or socio-cultural environment.
E. The impairments in personality functioning and the individual’s personality trait expression are not solely due to the direct physiological effects (e.g., a drug of abuse, medication) or a general medical condition (e.g., severe head trauma).
Are you positive that’s entirely correct? There are definitely disorders who’s definitions are shaped by their impact on others, like Munchausen’s by proxy, but I’m not a psychologist or psychiatrist. I could see it being described as a form of impairment to an important area of life to not being able to form healthy non-destructive relationships, and I think impairment is one of the criteria by which a disorder can be defined
I could also just be wrong though, and it’s a fair point regardless. Perhaps “defined by” wasn’t quite the right way to word things
Edit: upon rereading I didn’t actually say it was “defined by”, but the wording is still imperfect. I can only be but so anal about technicalities though; communicating my point is more important
The caregiver or partner then continues to present the person as being sick or injured, convincing others of the condition/s and their own suffering as the caregiver.
The causes of FDIA are generally unknown, yet it is believed among physicians and mental health professionals that the disorder is associated with the ‘caregiver’ having experienced traumatic events during childhood
The primary motive is believed to be to gain significant attention and sympathy, often with an underlying need to lie and a desire to manipulate others
Drag isn’t especially familiar with MBP, but this is what Wikipedia says in the introduction. That the caregiver is convinced that they’re suffering and that they need attention and sympathy. Those are the actions of someone who’s in pain, and a link to trauma makes it all make sense.
But yes, the fact that medicine is for helping patients is controversial in the psychiatric community. There’s considerable debate on the subject. But the guy who wrote the DSM IV criteria for NPD has stated in multiple interviews that Trump doesn’t have NPD, because he isn’t suffering.
American psychiatrists have to follow the Goldwater Rule, which says not to speculate on the disorders of public figures. Why? Because that’s not what diagnosis is for. Diagnosis is the first step in a plan to treat a patient and help them. Diagnosis should never be about insulting, labelling, or stigmatising a patient in the eyes of others. That’s a violation of the Hippocratic Oath.
You are not thinking of the hippocratic oath (there is no mention whatsoever of gossip about patients). The do no harm clause specifies bodily harm/abuse in a physical context. You have supplied a TV or Movie memory concerning diagnosis, or maybe you think HIPAA is somehow related to the oath. Many modern doctors don’t take the traditional hippocratic oath. If you’d ever read the text, you would know why.
You’ve clearly rattled all this off without taking a single second to look at context. The goldwater rule isn’t an actual law, and it does not in fact have an explicit analogue in the current APA ethics guidelines (though you can argue the same instruction is conveyed throughout a couple of the standards). You have made up rules that doctors live by in your brain. American psychologists do not “have to follow the goldwater rule”. Every time I see you post it’s some “I googled it!” regurgitation with absolutely no understanding of the topic, or insane ramblings about how we should be nice to AI. Your five minutes of searching is not going to help you think critically about anything. This is facebook user behavior.
Oof… This is a tough one. First, I’ll point out that this post is EXACTLY what I’d expect from a narcissist. Woe is me, zero accountability. Assuming you’ve actually been diagnosed by a psychiatric Dr, they didn’t diagnosed you with NPD on a whim. You were diagnosed with NPD after you did something, or more likely after a lot of times doing harmful things, and finally taking some initiative to figure out what’s wrong with you. Maybe friends or family had to really push you towards getting help. Maybe your just young enough that seeking mental health help is normalized, so you were able to go for it.
“As someone who has NPD I haven’t abused or manipulated anyone ever.” -As someone with NPD you wouldn’t be able to recognize if you had ever done these things. This entire post is pretty manipulative actually.
NPD is a very tragic illness. One of the worst parts imo is that, almost always, one of the symptoms is the person not being able to truly recognize their own disorder. This can be dangerous, and also infuriating. A person’s entire life can fall apart around them, and they are incapable of doing the self reflection necessary to understand why, let alone do the work to fix the problem. People will spend years trying to “save” a loved one, to get that person to recognize that it’s THEM who is the problem and needs to do the work, just to get to the exact same spot a decade later because that person CAN NOT recognize it. Recognizing there is a problem is the first step towards fixing yourself. Since NPD usually precludes the person from being able to recognize the problem in themselves, it becomes impossible for them to save/fix themselves. It’s truly insidious.
All those things you listed would make you a bad person if you didn’t try to correct them. And maybe you actually are. I certainly hope so.
Edit to add: asking someone with NPD to be able to self reflect and do the work to change, is like asking a paraplegic to run a marathon. It might seem to others that the person is REFUSING, when in reality they literally cannot physically do so. However, unlike the paraplegic person, a person with NPD causes harm to everyone around them, and the only thing a healthy person can do is cut toxic people from their lives. It’s not the person with NPDs fault (one of the other great tragedies is that it is almost always a result of shit parents) that they are toxic, but they are toxic none the less, and unable to stop it. I’m sorry you ended up this way, I truly hope you can let yourself be treated.
This post kinda scares me. Like the way you frame NPD is that if someone is diagnosed the only moral course of action is to never form relationships with anyone ever because you simply can’t do so without hurting them. This turns any attempt at self reflection from someone with NPD into another form of manipulation and frames rehabilitation impossible. You would condemn someone to a lifetime of isolation from a singular diagnosis. It just doesn’t sit right with me.
Noooo u don’t get it! OP is manipulating everyone by asking this question /s
When I was in college in the early 2000s, I took psychology classes.
In one class the professor told us that one of the best predictors of NPD was describing the disorder to someone and then asking them “Do you have this?”
According to that professor, NPD sufferers were more likely than most other disorders to recognize it in their self.
This directly contradicts what you just said about it.
You’re thinking of the “single item narcissism scale” which is the question
To what extent do you agree with this statement: “I am a narcissist.”
The disconnect is that while a narcissist can recognize they are narcissistic, they cannot accept that it rises to the level of a disorder or acknowledge the harm they cause others.
See, your making a mistake everyone else of in just assuming that I’m harmful for others. I have a very strong friend group and family members who love me and would completely disagree with your analysis on me.
It’s stigmatised because the term has entered common (mis)usage to describe people who are just selfish
Kinda like how “schizophrenia” is used to describe anyone who’s a bit weird or how “autistic” is used to describe someone with a interest in something.
I love how you were downvoted for a totally reasonable take.
People don’t understand that medicine is about helping the patient. They read the diagnostic criteria for NPD, and they don’t understand that those things are only medically significant if they harm the patient. They think the criteria is a list of bad behaviour that hurts others.
Teach people what medicine is, and the stigma disappears.
A major component of NPD is it’s harm to the sufferer’s interpersonal relationships. I think the behaviors that contribute to this, though diagnostically and medically relevant, are generally deservedly stigmatized.
This is, of course, different from the armchair diagnosing someone with NPD just because they exhibit some of these behaviors, which I do think contributes significantly to the stigma of mental illness.
Ultimately, someone with NPD is more than their diagnosis and can certainly be capable of interpersonal relationships that are worthwhile to all parties involved.
I think the behaviors that contribute to this, though diagnostically and medically relevant, are generally deservedly stigmatized.
Sure, but only one of the nine diagnostic criteria is a behaviour. Most of them are feelings. Oftentimes bad feelings cause bad behaviour, but a bad feeling isn’t enough evidence to call someone an abuser. If we start telling people they can’t feel certain ways, we’re basically inventing the concept of thoughtcrimes.
And yeah, people with NPD are very often attacked by neurotypicals for their thoughtcrimes.
And yeah, people with NPD are very often attacked by neurotypicals for their thoughtcrimes.
Source? I’ve dealt with more than my share of narcissists, and I’ve never seen this. They might say things like “You really do think you’re the center of the universe, unbelievable” but it’s not because of the thought itself, it’s because of a history of harmful behavior linked to that thought. Manipulation, verbal abuse, selfishness at the expense of others, etc.
If you somehow had all the non-behavioral traits, but were able to avoid all the telltale narcissistic behaviors, no one would attack you for your narcissistic thoughtcrimes.
That’s not what drag has heard from people with NPD.
The ableist’s first attack on people with NPD will be to say that the disorder causes abusive behaviour. And they will watch you like a hawk waiting for you to speak out of turn and prove them right. But if you stay on your best behaviour and prove the first stereotype wrong by your own existence, you will see the arguments change. You will still see hate. And the argument for the hate will morph into a new assertion: “Having a big ego is itself an act of abuse.”
https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/why-reactionaries-hate-pride-and-narcissists-938d39261f13
NPD is also typified by not recognizing your behavioral offenses, and reacting to criticism by claiming to be the victim. The narcissists in my life never think they do anything wrong, that their abusive behavior is normal or acceptable, that their critics are attacking them for no reason, out of unfounded hatred or jealousy.
That does not make for a reliable evaluation. Claims of baseless attacks from a person who thinks every attack against them is baseless, does not prove that those attacks are actually baseless.
Well drag doesn’t think neurotypicals with no psychological background can make reasoned judgements on the struggles faced by neurodivergent people either. That’s like asking a white person to explain how it feels to be african american.
Just a few things:
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Bit presumptuous to assume I’m neurotypical.
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I’m pulling my information from psychologists, like the ones who described the signs and symptoms of NPD in the DSM.
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I have extensive experience with more than one narcissist. Failing to recognize their own abusive behavior, and the link to subsequent social fallout, is textbook narcissism.
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I’m not trying to make judgement on their struggles, I’m stating that believing oneself to be unfairly targeted is a symptom of narcissism.
It’s more like someone who is nose blind to their own horrific body odor (thanks to my MtG phase, also something I’m quite familiar with) than race. They think they smell fine, yet people react poorly to them, some even suggest bathing or deodorant. Since they can’t smell themself, they interpret these comments as baseless. They think they smell fine, and other nose blind smelly people will only confirm their self-assuredness.
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