Earning a living implies that you’re not using passive income to mooch off people. It’s contrasted to land lords and nobility who were simply entitled to money.
I mean…ya…but this “quote” doesn’t appear to me to be talking about the wealthy…but rather addressing the notion that poor people and the unemployed have no value if they don’t have employment/can’t find better employment.
Could be wrong.
mooch is a great word.
And they wonder why nobody wants to bring a baby into this world
If you choose to have a child entirely on purpose in 2025, you’re just a piece of shit, or fanatically devoted to ‘The Revolution’ and think its gonna happen any day now, because you’re delusional¹.
¹you had better not use that child as an excuse to stand the fuck down. That child is why you belong at the absolute front of every police encounter, risking your life for their future. If you have a child and are not regularly trying to kill police Nd the wealthy, that child should be taken from you, be ause you do not give a shit about them, they only exist for your own self gratifying natalist bullshit.
Absolutely unhinged
Narcissistic delusion is not the basis for an entire human life. That person you’re bringing into the world has to exist for decades, and the next few decades¹ are not something I would condemn anyone to. Doing that is sick, its selfish, and its abusive.
Maybe once we start fixing shit, and there’s a chance of not deliberately putting a child through hell.
¹we can’t even imagine a future that isn’t hellish anymore. Even our fictions have forgotten utopia.
I guess you had a pretty unpleasant life so far? Not everybody’s has sucked. But I don’t think I need to form a coherent argument against 'all reproduction is inherently morally bankrupt ’ - it’s such deliberate bait that it rejects good faith discussion off-hand.
Is there a more coherent argument to be made against hyper-natalists? Yes, I think that could plausibly be upheld. But that would be a more nuanced stance. The world, despite its trajectory, is not a hellscape.
I’m not delusional about climate change and fascism. Your children will not have your life, asshole. You cannot promise them that. You cannot comprehend how grim this shit is going to get. I’m not really joking about my plan to die in the water wars.
Nobody who breeds right now, in 2025, should be allowed to keep them unless they’re going hard on revolution. Like, anything short of the parents from ‘one battle after another’ you shouldn’t be allowed to keep the kid, you are not responsible enough to care for a child.
This was not the case, arguably, 20 40 60 years ago. This is not anti natalist, this is considering the life that will be available to ypur hypothetical child, the life you are forcing someone to have to live.
If you think things 60 years ago were all peachy you must still be a child
Any excuse to do what you want with no consideration for the lives of others, right?
I could explain how now is different, but you don’t care.
Batshit doomerism, you sound like one of those religious nuts expecting the rapture any minute. You don’t have some privileged insight into ‘how bad things are gonna get’ or whatever hypothetical revolution you’ve conjectured, yet you presume to lecture others about it. Please, tell me again about narcissism and what it consists of.
You’re right everything’s fine, would you be willing to buy some land in the Marshall islands off me?
No? I dont have any special fucking knowledge you don’t have access to, ‘Cadillac desert’ and ‘desert’ are not the fucking necronomicon; you can get them like anywhere. Zlibrary, Anna’s archive, your local library, wherever the fuck else. You just want to keep pretending, so why the fuck would you?
Fucking antinatalists. If you hate living so much, go and do us all a favor.
I’m against inflicting the hell world weve made on a living thing.
By all means, fuck like mormob rabbits once we fix shit, but if you’re breeding on purpose before that, you are not fit to raise a child.
You know, when i originally read this, the way i interpreted it was that he was saying that if you need to earn money to live you don’t deserve to live.
I much prefer the version that is an indictment of the phrase “earn a living” as implying you don’t deserve to live if you aren’t “working” in the modern sense of earning money at a modern job vs doing what’s necessary to stay alive like all nature’s critters.
“If you don’t earn money, you don’t deserve to live.”
This is how I interpreted it and it definitely feels true, that’s how capitalism treats us.
For clarification, I initially read it to mean that anybody “poor enough” to have to work to earn money does not deserve to live. I.e., rich people are human, everybody else is subhuman.
Your interpretation I saw a few moments later, and that the post was criticizing that phrase. Basically, the polar opposite of my first impression.
Thank you. I have been saying this for years (more than a decade now).
Feminism fought for the independence of women from abusive husbands/partners, by making them earn their own money, so they can be free. I would not say that the majority of the population feels particularly free today, because the economic situation strangles them. There is a new dependency created in stead of the old one: The dependency from the employer. Especially with at-will employment, a manager or higher-up can fire you at any moment, which can cause homelessness and despair. These are not good things that we want to have.
The logical consequence of fighting for freedom and equality is to fight for economic equality: People should be able to eat and sleep in peace, without having to worry about their circumstances tomorrow. “Equality” does not mean that everybody has the same amount, but that everybody has the chances they need to succeed in life.
We need a universal basic income, or any equivalent of it such as handouts in various forms.
Or, hear me out, we create a socialist government that make food, water and housing human rights and that works towards a communist world where everyone gets what they need and give what they can.
Lol, it’ll totally work this time around, pinkie promise.
Somebody only read the article title… Give the actual text a look to see it boldly claims the connection to political system is not strongly linked.
Socialism has worked incredibly well in uplifting the lives of the working classes. In countries like Russia and China, life expectancies doubled. The incredible improvements in living conditions, democratization, and orienting society towards satisfying the needs of the many instead of profits for the few resulted in the greatest eradications of poverty in history. Socialism has worked, continues to work, and will increasingly work as time goes on, until it is eventually replaced by communism.
Fascists and capitalists, slavers and landlords and other leaches were indeed killed and oppressed by the communists. It’s better than the daily genocide and violence of capitalism and imperialism.
It really says a lot about Wikipedia that it has an article for that but not an equivalent for capitalism caused disasters. Like say https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhopal_disaster.
Or the toxic wastes that lead to the creation of the epa in America
Yep, how you frame and present information has a dramatic impact on how it is interpreted, and in liberal, western-dominated spheres communism is demonized while the excesses of capitalism are minimized.
People are too happy to overlook systematic issues with capitalism just because they think they’ll be one of the lucky ones on top getting to make the inhumane decisions, all in the name of getting another dollar
This is gradually fading as capitalism crumbles.
Lolol, lets compare that to capitalism numbers. Don’t forget to compare suffering too, since everyone seems to overlook quality of life, injuries, and slavery, in favor of just one sliver of the many metrics of deaths. So, don’t forget to calculate the indirect deaths caused by capitalism too lol
No but see slavery isn’t killing so its fine.
Lol, the suffering too, huh. That’s adorable.
When you’re definitely on the side of humanity
USAID’s cancelation is calling…
Thats more a government thing than a communist thing.
You coukd skip the government part and use other organizational systems in a constant experiment to find the full communism faster…
ITT: guys who probably consider themselves too smart for religion thinking in terms dictated by the church.
“Deserving” and "undeserving* are made up concepts disconnected from any concrete reality, just shards of Christianity preserved in the amber of American civic religion and exported throughout the capitalist-dominated world. If you talk about who “deserves” this or that, you might as well be talking about who’s holy and who’s a sinner. The truth is, we are just animals who banded together tens of thousands of years ago to help each other survive. Many anthropologists say that society began when we started taking care of those who could no longer contribute as much physically: the old, the sick, the injured. But hey, if you want to be less socially evolved than a bunch of cave-dwelling hunter gatherers, that’s your choice. Just don’t expect the rest of humanity to entertain your rotten ideas about useless eaters, and don’t act surprised when you find yourself put out on the ice.
Our society (with US at the forefront) is built on contradictions. On one hand, capitalism says you don’t deserve anything, you have to earn it. On the other hand, consumerism says you deserve every new gadget, luxury, treat.
I believe both are false: everyone deserves a reasonable standard of living (UBI?), nobody inherently deserves more than that but it should be possible to earn it. And we should acknowledge that earning something is not a matter of moral superiority, but a combination of some effort and some luck.
Capitalism is sold by liberalism as a grand system where everyone is on equal footing as buyers and sellers of goods and services, including labor. Consumerism is pushed by capitalists to increase the purchase of commodities beyond what would naturally happen (no need for a new phone every year), a sign of capitalism’s inefficiencies.
Earning more through labor isn’t wrong, but the problem is that the system is built off of the theft of value created by workers, and parasitic capitalists sitting at the top siphoning off vast amounts of material wealth. Every sale of a commodity continues this vast siphon from the working classes to the capitalist class. UBI doesn’t fix this, what would fix it is moving onto socialism, where public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy, the working classes are in control, and production and distribution are aimed at satisfying needs, rather than private profits.
Based
Everyone deserves survival of the fittest
Okay congrats, you have now been wiped out by a society that prioritizes collective well-being and is therefore able to field a larger, healthier army with more advanced technology.
Reminds me of my Stellaris campaigns playing as aggressive egalitarian democracies, like the United Nations of Earth xd
I gotta get stellaris, it sounds fun
I’ve been told there are mods that add cool things like soviet republic-style government.
Well since it’s literaly us vs the planet (since we seem to be unable to regulate our society’s consumption of finite resources), the question is : does the planet exist for us to consume it ?
The answer is no, but we’ll still consume it.
Do we deserve to live ? Well outside of society, there is no reason we’re deserving it more than any living being. And sometimes I clearly wonder, when some individuals contribution is a big negative legacy for the next ones, and to the planet.
Tbh I do not mean we (humans) do not deserve to live, but I clearly wouldn’t want it taken for granted, cause it is not.
That varies quite a bit by country. Capitalist systems have no problems with destroying the world, but socialist countries are better able to plan production and distribution. You can see this in action in the PRC right now, and its major shift towards renewables and electrification at an astounding scale.
Gruesome how we have social darwinists even here in comments
Evolution makes approving noises
Because society is social darwinism, got it.
Deserving to live and surviving are not the same. In the natural condition if you don’t gather or hunt, you have no food. You die. You do not deserve anything.
Even in society you are not entitled to others working for you. However, in a civilised society we should provide for those incapable to provide for themself due to ethics.
I think it would incredibly more desirable for society to have a firm social safety net (housing, food, healthcare). We have the technology and means to do so without breaking a sweat.
If we try it and society stagnates, we can always tweak it to incentivize certain types of work. Myself, I believe society would see vast improvements when people aren’t surviving and living in shambles. I believe many of our current issues would be quickly solved once we are broadly able to slow down and think for a moment.
Deserving or not deserving doesn’t really factor into the equation. We need to create and build a world worth living in. I want to live in a world where people are more free, healthy, and safe - where work is directly benefiting our communities instead of people being forced to slave in hostile work environments to barely make it.
In general I agree. People should be able to make informed life choices without pressure. However, I don’t think universal basic income is the solution (see below). In Germany we have no public university fees and you can get Bafög; which is a far from ideal conditional income enough to cover housing and food while you study. You have to pay a part back once you are done, but far from all (at most 50%; often less than that). I wouldn’t mind a study UBI.
I am for social security and social services that allow you to make an informed choice of what you want to do. Beyond that I am for “you have to work”. But I am looking at “work” from an European perspective with all the protection laws in place and not an American perspective.
The main problem with UBI (Universal Basic Income) is that while tests showed benefits (highly depending on countries), financing UBI is difficult. So far no larger country has completely adapted UBI at least partly due to that reason. Also, no study was long enough to see the “people are less incentivised to work” issue.
Thanks for your response and engagement. I appreciated hearing your perspective as a German/European in contrast to my American one.
We are likely in agreement that for a world to be going in a desirable direction, that we all generally need to find ways to contribute to society to make it a better place.
Hey, you! The zebra on the right! Get in my belly, I deserve to live!
I dont belong on this planet. That’s why I have to rent space until I mercifully pass away. Giving birth is child abuse and the most selfish act possible.
I semi agree with you, but the focus on “giving birth” vs “impregnation” seems misogynistic as fuck, especially with how much easier (cost, recovery time, risk of complications) vasectomies are than hysterectomies or even tying fallopian tubes.
Some people really enjoy someone else being worse off than them.
Giving birth is child abuse and the most selfish act possible.
Hard disagree. 🤷♂️ Surely depends on who you are and your means of providing for the child, both materialistically and emotionally. That’s just my opinion.
In some countries you are a disease away of financial bankruptcy. Good luck being able to 100% guarantee a living.
Furthermore, this is the first generation that is worse off than the previous one, and its a trend that seems will continue.
In the lucky event of being part of the select 3% that has financial security, no luxury can shield you from the pain the rest of the people is suffering.
Maybe I’m a pessimist, but introducing a child into this roulette is not the kindest if you think about it.
In some countries you are a disease away of financial bankruptcy. Good luck being able to 100% guarantee a living.
Yup, but far from everywhere.
Furthermore, this is the first generation that is worse off than the previous one
Strong doubt 🤨 Which generation are we talking about? Lots of wars and plagues and stuff in history have made a generation of people worse off than their parents. That obviously didn’t stop us from procreating.
Maybe I’m a pessimist, but introducing a child into this roulette is not the kindest if you think about it.
Definitely are, or maybe more accurately a perspectivist, if that’s a thing. There are lots of countries and societies where bringing children up is not a “roulette” or “child abuse”. Everyone I know has good means and nothing but love for their children, in spite of (sometimes harsh) difficulties.
And we are more emotionally aware of ourselves and our children in this generation than ever before. For the first time, a generation of parents are raising themselves and their children simultaneously. It’s very emotionally and mentally taxing but it’s a very good step in the right direction. We are listening to our kids and understanding their needs.
Have a good day, try not to generalize a (personal?) bad situation. ❤️
While I agree with most of what you said, I cannot disregard how a swift change in politics can be introduced to satisfy the wims of the billonaires. We have recent and astounding examples (USA). Sadly I don’t trust humanity anymore. I don’t have a choice but to try to live my life the best I can, but I won’t force anyone else into existence.
Have a good one you too my friend!
I on the other hand also agree with you now, that a swift change in politics can definitely upend an entire nation and affect several generations to come.
But when we have children, we go into it with a lot of risk. The child might be born with disorders, develop crippling phobias, be bullied, get cancer. We never know what might happen. I might get run over by a car on my way to work tomorrow. But I can’t live my life thinking “what if” all the time. We have to keep going and have to keep fighting for a better life. Or work to maintain a good life we might already have.
Or at least that’s a drive that a lot of humans have. It’s in the nature of the majority of people I would guess. Otherwise we wouldn’t be here, because our ancestors would’ve already cut the chain. Life is fuckin’ hard, quite frankly. And if that drive wouldn’t be there, it wouldn’t be worth it. 😅 Sharing it with people you love is what makes it worthwhile IMO.
Thanks for a good talk 😊
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It’s crazy how expensive it is to be alive.
You don’t deserve to be alive in this kingdom, but the catch is there is nowhere to live that is not owned.
Well, l don’t earn a living since I don’t feel pressurised. But I ought to do something worthwhile just to feel that I am alive !!
The main thing is to remember what is worthwhile is not necessarily something that is imposed by mass culture, tv or the Internet.
Can I be the Genx here and just … yeah, we’ve always had to work for survival. Like each and every organism that find a niche. They are all working… even photosynthesis is a kind of activity.
Good grief.
All critters have to work. Think about it.
Maybe… Just maybe… We’ve evolved past being critters and could use our superior brain power to avoid having to work like the animals…
Sorry — we’re still animals.
We are literally the morons destroying the planet and you somehow see yourself as superior to animals that do not destroy the earth? They don’t use plastic or have subscriptions that make fascists rich.
Listen— I want to be friends with everyone at Lemmy because we all share contempt for the prevailing hegemony… so I’ll tone it down …
Humans can’t use their superior brainpower to boycott Facebook successfully.
But plants kind of live in the real world, and I live in violently enforced fantasy bullshit. Literally the majority of the resources, of that work, goes to maintaining inequality and oppression, not to anyone’s survival.
Take every penny in advertising policing ‘genAI’ and military budgets. Just the most obvious inarguable ‘this couldn’t possibly be for anything else’, and it’s over half of the minerals work hours and CPU cycles,
So the amount we have to work is at least twice as much as the actual amount to survive, and the benefits are no more than half as much. And all of it in deeply bullshit conditions, usually in ways that are 90% oppression 10% productivity at best.
And these are kinda conservative estimates.
So get peter thiel’s dick out of your mouth before you speak, boot licker. You won’t sound nearly as fucking stupid.
Touchy much?
I’m not the one complaining about the hours per week I work or my compensation… just saying…
Honestly— we’re just another organism on the planet.
Separate yourself from the system — a hatchet in the wild… and you’ll find you’ll still have to work. The native Americans had to hunt and build domeciles and make clothes… maybe farm… fish… it’s work all the way down to the first turtle.
You put a lot of work into coping with the amount of billionaire dick you suck.
Admittedly, this is very refined copium, the cognitive dissonance is very smoothe, the choices you’re pretending don’t exist and horrors you need to pretend are inherent are very refined. A+ rhetoric, gotta respect the evil game.
Still get the billionaire dick out of your mouth before speaking, boot licker.
First: we’re all here because we want to weaken the current corporate hegemony. So… yeah… down with big billionaires. You and I are on the same team. (Unless you don’t get the Orwell reference.)
So… I just want to get this straight.
Let’s say it takes X amount of work to support your needs. Your PB&Js and Captain Crunch… whatever it is.
So… In your world… let’s say you eat for free… whose precious calories get burned in the acquisition of the calories upon which you are sustained?
I’m not averse to the idea of doing shit. I’m averse to 99% of the value of everything i do being stolen and given back in the form of thugs who k8dnap my neighbors and gas my friends and might kill me at any second and nobody will care, and will not contribute to that system.
But it is actually possible to eat for just about free. The precolumbian peoples of north America had actually cultivated a sort of abundance that allowed for very nearly this in some places. Doesn’t work with our current population, and I like building shit¹ so it’s not the utopia I’d choose, but is in fact possible. Shit was basically rock candy mountain. And I’d be okay going shit for other people. I do in fact. It can be fun, when work isn’t made miserable. They didnt choose to be here any more than I did, and in light of tgat they should be allowed the necessities of life.
I’m not interested in what you have to say about any of this, what with the billionaire dick youre choking on.
¹also toilet paper and antibiotics
I’ve tried to remain civil but since your dream job is “going shit for other people,” I agree we don’t have much in common. Yes — that’s a quote.
Allow me though to ask you to leave your ignorant, toxic, homophobic, ugliness at Reddit where they need people like you to undermine their efforts at community building.
Yes I’m homophobic. So homophobic. The most homophobic actually. Misogynist too. You got me.
