Sigh that was really unnecessary and will make quite a few people sympathize with RMS even if they agree with the allegations against him.
First of all, the guy is a 68 year old ex-hippy boomer with likely some sort of mental health issues. Let him sit a few years more on the board of directors as a quiet founder and just let it be…
And aside from apparently unpleasant behavior against students (something shockingly common with professors… and anyways irrelevant to his FSF role), the main allegations expressed in their annex don’t really hold up.
The first point about relativizing child abuse, is true (and was a very common view in hippy circles), but RMS has publicly stated even before all this that people convinced him to change his mind about it. Maybe that isn’t fully true, but people deserve the benefit of doubt that they can change their mind.
The second point about down syndrome is a very common majority view-point in most of the world, and I wager even in the US it is secretly held by the majority. And it is also hypocritical, as in essence criticizing it, is questioning the right of a woman to have an abortion…
And the last point about gender pronouns… well come on… I 100% agree that we as society should start adapting our language to be more accommodating to trans persons, but this is a 68 year old boomer we are talking about. And his views on it aren’t even especially transphobic, but just somewhat pedantic about “correct” language use.
I don’t agree, it feels like you are excusing stalman for his behavior because other people also behave the way stalman does. That is not how that works ESPECIALLY when someone represents the figurehead for an entire movement/community. Is stalman significantly more toxic than many 68 year old white men? He definitely isn’t alone in his behavior but the point is its one thing if its your retired uncle who behaves this way and its another if its someone who has a ton of responsibility to shape a community.
Yes, but why this unnecessary commotion now? He was removed from all relevant positions years ago and this re-appointment to a back-seat on the board of directors of the FSF is basically just a minor nod to his important past role in the FSF. It’s like putting up a picture of the founder on the wall… no real harm in doing so and he is the founder of the FSF after all.
is there a thing such as unnecessary commotion ? Since we have had good discussions on the anarchist community I feel compelled to ask you if this isn’t just a point made by people who are not affected by his negative behavior. as in it’s easier to forgive racism when one is white.
I hope it’s not the case and I have misunderstood you.
The justified commotion already took place two years ago and has resulted in RMS losing all his former positions and probably gave him much to think about.
There was so much bad blood over this, why can’t we just move on and accept this peace offer to the other side? Why does it have to be total annihilation? In the grander scheme of things RMS is a small fish that is in some ways more of a friend than an enemy.
And last but not least, I find it really questionable that people who claim to fight against discrimination, now dogpile on a clearly weak target who to a large extend seems to have said the things he did because of his asberger syndrome or something like that. What kind of shitty bullying is that?
I welcomed his removal two years ago, but at some point is it time to move on and extend a hand as a peace offer so that we can work together on more important issues.
And last but not least, I find it really questionable that people who claim to fight against discrimination, now dogpile on a clearly weak target who to a large extend seems to have said the things he did because of his asberger syndrome or something like that. What kind of shitty bullying is that?
legit causes can always be used to get acquire more power etc…
but I don’t see how it can be good for him to return.
Why does it have to be total annihilation? In the grander scheme of things RMS is a small fish that is in some ways more of a friend than an enemy.
I am unaware of rms efforts to change, I am also unaware of him having changed positions and showing it with action. At worst, him coming back(with the small amount of information I have) sounds just like defiance and lack of respect for oppressed people.
There was so much bad blood over this, why can’t we just move on and accept this peace offer to the other side?
As someone who believes in restorative justice I’d like to know more about the peace offer. :)
The logic you’re using here; that if RMS is put back on in a minor position he will use it to acquire more power; if the same logic that people who dislike women, lgtbq, etc. use for denying those groups position of power. I just want to point out the hypocrisy that you’re giving special treatment to one group over another. Which is why identity politics in general is so toxic.
sounds like trolling.
sounds like ignorance at best, if that’s the case I am sorry this is not a good place to help you.
if it’s the former … see you later
yeah definetly trolling
legit causes can always be used to get acquire more power etc… but I don’t see how it can be good for him to return.
was clearly a criticism towards the fact we can legit causes to get power and exclude rms.
Oh I misinterpreted your original comment. Didn’t realize it was based on malice towards RMS. I see now. You’re advocating social justice causes over free software causes.
Edit:
In other words you would take down a vaccine developer company if the lead scientist believed against trans conversion before adulthood, or something controversial like that. Instead of having a vaccine as long as they weren’t in a position of power.
This isn’t about him returning in any comparable function. The new position is largly ceremonial and low profile.
Asking RMS to change (beyond what he already did) is a bit like asking a gay person to become less gay. He clearly is neurodivergent and has issues seeing beyond technicalities in discussions he feels strongly about.
As for the peace offer: we in the broadest sense won two years ago, and this peace offer is towards the many supporters of RMS who are not all bad people.
Sigh that was really unnecessary and will make quite a few people sympathize with RMS even if they agree with the allegations against him.
First of all, the guy is a 68 year old ex-hippy boomer with likely some sort of mental health issues. Let him sit a few years more on the board of directors as a quiet founder and just let it be…
And aside from apparently unpleasant behavior against students (something shockingly common with professors… and anyways irrelevant to his FSF role), the main allegations expressed in their annex don’t really hold up.
The first point about relativizing child abuse, is true (and was a very common view in hippy circles), but RMS has publicly stated even before all this that people convinced him to change his mind about it. Maybe that isn’t fully true, but people deserve the benefit of doubt that they can change their mind.
The second point about down syndrome is a very common majority view-point in most of the world, and I wager even in the US it is secretly held by the majority. And it is also hypocritical, as in essence criticizing it, is questioning the right of a woman to have an abortion…
And the last point about gender pronouns… well come on… I 100% agree that we as society should start adapting our language to be more accommodating to trans persons, but this is a 68 year old boomer we are talking about. And his views on it aren’t even especially transphobic, but just somewhat pedantic about “correct” language use.
I don’t agree, it feels like you are excusing stalman for his behavior because other people also behave the way stalman does. That is not how that works ESPECIALLY when someone represents the figurehead for an entire movement/community. Is stalman significantly more toxic than many 68 year old white men? He definitely isn’t alone in his behavior but the point is its one thing if its your retired uncle who behaves this way and its another if its someone who has a ton of responsibility to shape a community.
Stalman’s time has far past.
Yes, but why this unnecessary commotion now? He was removed from all relevant positions years ago and this re-appointment to a back-seat on the board of directors of the FSF is basically just a minor nod to his important past role in the FSF. It’s like putting up a picture of the founder on the wall… no real harm in doing so and he is the founder of the FSF after all.
deleted by creator
is there a thing such as unnecessary commotion ? Since we have had good discussions on the anarchist community I feel compelled to ask you if this isn’t just a point made by people who are not affected by his negative behavior. as in it’s easier to forgive racism when one is white. I hope it’s not the case and I have misunderstood you.
The justified commotion already took place two years ago and has resulted in RMS losing all his former positions and probably gave him much to think about.
There was so much bad blood over this, why can’t we just move on and accept this peace offer to the other side? Why does it have to be total annihilation? In the grander scheme of things RMS is a small fish that is in some ways more of a friend than an enemy.
And last but not least, I find it really questionable that people who claim to fight against discrimination, now dogpile on a clearly weak target who to a large extend seems to have said the things he did because of his asberger syndrome or something like that. What kind of shitty bullying is that?
I welcomed his removal two years ago, but at some point is it time to move on and extend a hand as a peace offer so that we can work together on more important issues.
legit causes can always be used to get acquire more power etc… but I don’t see how it can be good for him to return.
I am unaware of rms efforts to change, I am also unaware of him having changed positions and showing it with action. At worst, him coming back(with the small amount of information I have) sounds just like defiance and lack of respect for oppressed people.
As someone who believes in restorative justice I’d like to know more about the peace offer. :)
The logic you’re using here; that if RMS is put back on in a minor position he will use it to acquire more power; if the same logic that people who dislike women, lgtbq, etc. use for denying those groups position of power. I just want to point out the hypocrisy that you’re giving special treatment to one group over another. Which is why identity politics in general is so toxic.
sounds like trolling. sounds like ignorance at best, if that’s the case I am sorry this is not a good place to help you. if it’s the former … see you later
yeah definetly trolling
was clearly a criticism towards the fact we can legit causes to get power and exclude rms.
Oh I misinterpreted your original comment. Didn’t realize it was based on malice towards RMS. I see now. You’re advocating social justice causes over free software causes. Edit: In other words you would take down a vaccine developer company if the lead scientist believed against trans conversion before adulthood, or something controversial like that. Instead of having a vaccine as long as they weren’t in a position of power.
This isn’t about him returning in any comparable function. The new position is largly ceremonial and low profile.
Asking RMS to change (beyond what he already did) is a bit like asking a gay person to become less gay. He clearly is neurodivergent and has issues seeing beyond technicalities in discussions he feels strongly about.
As for the peace offer: we in the broadest sense won two years ago, and this peace offer is towards the many supporters of RMS who are not all bad people.