Hello!
I’m interested in moving my personal computer to running Linux but I’m not sure where to even begin. As background, I am a casual user and have a desktop with hardware from around 2014 running Windows. I am hoping to setup a NAS drive as a media server in the next year or so, offloading all of the files currently on the Windows desktop and have been interested in open source software such as Jellyfin. I also mostly game on an Xbox and Nintendo Switch, but have used the desktop in the past for gaming such as with an Oculus Rift Headset and some Steam games so not huge on getting games working on the computer. But, I do sometimes torrent using the computer so don’t want to lose that capability (especially with upkeep for the media server).
With all of that said, I didn’t know how to get started with choosing what Linux OS to use, setting it up, backing up my files to make sure I can use them with the new OS, etc. Making the switch seems to have great options for customization and “choosing a distro that works for you”, but I don’t know what would work for me or what will be user friendly for a beginner.
Any tips or pointing me in the right direction would be greatly appreciated! Thank you!
I think my biggest tip is to manage your expectations. What you are attempting is not the same as simply moving to a new version of Windows – literally everything will be different. You’ve spent a lifetime learning how to perform all these tasks until they became second-nature, but now you plan to move to a whole new system. Thing will be in different places, the way you tweak settings or access content will be different, and it’s going to be very frustrating because hey, this task should be easy. Don’t expect to cram all those years of experience into re-learning a new system in a few weeks.
The good news is that there’s a huge support community, and just about anything you want to do has already been asked and can be found through a quick search. Stick with it, and you’ll discover that linux actually gives you quite a lot more control over what you can do with your hardware (not to mention nearly all the software is free). It won’t be long before you’re asking how you ever survived without many of these tools.
Okay thank you! Could you give some examples about tasks that “should be easy” but aren’t? I’ve worked with MacOS casually and I thought it was based on Unix (maybe?), so I was at least aware that the way to maneuver through the desktop/settings/file searches are different from Windows of course. I am certainly not a power user, just getting frustrated with companies overstepping more and more and want to cut myself from their whims, if that makes sense.
In the beginning it seemed like everything was a task – how do I install new software, how do I set up the right display or printer driver, how do I upgrade the whole OS? Then it quickly got down to making things look and act in a way that made more sense to me, or even adding and moving things around on the start menu. Back when I started, setting up dual monitors required manually building an X11 startup file and upgrading the OS usually meant compiling a new display driver, but that was around 2005 so of course things are MUCH better now.
Eventually you’ll get down to the point of simply finding compatible software to reproduce something you did in Windows, which usually isn’t difficult. A lot of this is going to depend on exactly how you use your computer and what you expect from it. I was already using Firefox and Thunderbird when I made the switch so that covered like half the things I needed at the time. Microsoft Office is (thankfully) gone although some parts of Libre Office still feel a bit rough. There’s pretty much no remaining support for Adobe pdf files, so if your employer makes use of advanced features for filling out forms then you may run into trouble (of course standard PDFs are very well supported). You will find things along the way where some business has made a point of locking people in to their product and there’s not much you can do except point out to your employer that they’re buying licenses for something that is free and more widely supported in open source products, but mostly you’ll just find your own solutions to work around these issues.
I’ll be stuck with Windows on my work laptop, that’s not something that I will be able to change anyway. I can point out as things come up, but with industry accepted software (like SolidWorks for example) that we use daily I can’t see us switching to any alternative.
Somebody at my company got a hard-on for Microsoft products several years ago and I’d like to beat them senseless with all the problems it has caused. They started by moving all email to Microsoft “because we’ll save a ton of money not having to pay techs to manage the servers.” Within the month our mailboxes were full of spam and they’ve had to open up multiple new tech teams to deal with the constant fallout from phishing scams. And they just keep doubling down and ignoring things like the recent news of Microsoft ignoring a full remote-access vulnerability for more than a year and then mis-representing it when they did finally decide to patch it.
Yeah that’s what has made me apprehensive to be honest. I feel pretty comfortable in windows doing many things, and my wife has a MacBook that I’m also pretty comfortable using so learning a new, third OS does seem obtuse. I like the idea of having more control over the software, but don’t want to lose the “it just works” feeling of an OS or software I am used to using.
That mindset unfortunately leads you to being locked into vendor-specific ecosystems with no control about the software you’re using. The big vendors (MS, Apple) know this and have already started extracting more value (in form of data) from their users. Next step will be to put more stuff into their clouds and sell you a subscription. You’ll be renting software with included spyware then. With zero control yourself. Linux and FOSS gives you control back. It’s also quite easy to use in 2023.
That’s why I’m wanting to make the switch now! I’m really disliking how constrained I’ve felt with what applications and especially subscription based services.
It doesn’t really take long to get the basic stuff figured out though, but there is definitely that initial feeling of being lost. As others have suggested, start out running something in a VM on your Windows desktop, then you can quickly go back and forth to practice doing things in linux as you have time (plus it’s a huge benefit to have a working browser in Windows so you can do a search if something breaks).
Linux has a number of different desktop environments to choose from, and what’s cool is you can load up multiple types and select one at the login screen. If you want to start with something that is reasonably comfortable, try loading the ‘Mate’ desktop. Maybe I’m just used to old-school Windows (Win2K was the last one I used), but I’ve always thought Mate did a good job of putting all everything in logical places. As for the OS itself, there’s also been a lot of suggestions so I’ll throw mine in as well… I’m a die-hard Debian fan, both on my desktop and on my servers. It does NOT push bleeding-edge releases on you, so this means you won’t have the very latest updates but to me it’s more important to have a rock-solid system that I can always rely on. I’ve been using it for about 15 years now and it has never failed me.
Do others auto-update or are users prompted as updates become available?
On the desktop you will likely be notified when updates are available. On my servers I do automatic security updates, but leave the rest for manual updates so I can do one machine at a time and know right away if an update breaks something.
Linux mint is in my opinion the best distro for a new user, but you may personally not be fond of the UI.
I don’t know how to write a guide for you, but if you have more specific questions feel free to ask them, best of luck!
I like Mint a lot, and have it running on one of my computers, even though it’s not my daily driver.
However, I recently tried Zorin just to see what the fuss is about and honestly I can’t see many reasons to recommend Mint above Zorin to new users. Both are based on Ubuntu LTS and have a bunch of tools to allow purely graphical management and Zorin has several windows-like layouts (both 10 and 7) that are more polished in my view, but Zorin also has the benefit of a more modern compositor and DE base with Wayland support, being based on gnome and mutter.
I’d be interested in your perspective, as from my end the only reason now to recommend mint (until muffin gets sufficiently modernised) would be if you knew a user would prefer cinnamon’s slightly more traditional feel (almost XP), or if in the future LMDE became more of an important feature.
Zorin only updates every two years, which makes it fairly outdated on many fronts.
Is that not the same as Mint? Both are based on Ubuntu LTS.
No, Mint updates twice a year.
Thanks, that’s interesting. Do they only update the cinnamon parts, or is there something else more substantial that is updated?
LMDE is great.
Thank you for the suggestion!
Why do you suggest it for a new user? Is it just more user friendly?
Distros based on Ubuntu, such as Ubuntu itself, Mint, Pop!_OS, Zorin, etc. are targeted toward new and casual users. They automate a lot of things that other distros assume their users want to do on their own.
Mint is a popular choice because it’s non-corporate and has a very Windows-like default UI. But you’d be fine on any of the ones I listed.
Yes non-corporate is pretty important to me as the reason to move away from Windows in the first place! Thanks for the suggestions!
It should be noted that linux corporate is a bit different than other corporate. Ubuntu is still open source and doesn’t track you, and Canonical (their owner) knows if they piss off users too much, they’ll just switch distros.
But they do sometimes make top-level decisions that annoy the community (a lot of people hate their proprietary snap packages,) and have a different feel from community-based distros.
Most people just use a browser these days, and they behave the same in every OS.
Steam has proton to run non native games on Linux, and works well enough for most things.
Try a few live images before making the switch.
That’s true, most of what I do would be in a browser as a casual user. My work laptop would still be running Windows and doing what I “need” (Excel, SolidWorks, etc.) Although I want to keep the ability to torrent and manage my media files nicely, I’m open to using different softwares than I’m used to for those.
I’d say don’t over think it. Just pick a distribution and try to stick with it. The vast choices is also a curse for newcomers. It definitely delayed my journey by years going back to Windows.
Start with something well supported, I’d pick Mint.
Get games or whatever you use the computer for the most to work OK. Nvidia don’t like Linux, pick AMD.
Be prepared to give up some old habits instead of forcing windows software on Linux. For example I had to give up Lightroom and as a photography hobbyist it was hard at first. Now I use Darktable and the switch back to Lightroom today seems equally hard.
So in short. Install a beginner friendly distro and get the most important stuff working and begin using the computer as much as possible.
Lots of suggestions for Mint so it seems that’s a good choice for me! Thank you!
No problem. It probably won’t be the one you end up with if you stick to Linux for a couple of years but as I said don’t distro-hop. The big jump is the one to Linux. The difference between distributions isn’t that important. Good luck!
I forget what GPU I currently have but I may be upgrading soon anyway so I’ll be sure to keep that in mind for the purchase. That’s the first big step: finding software to fit my needs as they come up but that can be piece by piece!
I’ve been using linux for over 30 years, from Linux from Scratch to Mint. Dont’ pick a distro that makes you seem 1337 or anything. I must say, that for the not-so terminal-savvy user, linux Mint is a great pick, most stuff (if not all) can be done with the GUI, and the installer is a breeze.
Picking a distro is one thing, picking a desktop environment is, in my opinion, more important. With default Mint, you get Cinnamon, which is a great pick, a balance between saving resources and eye candy. You also have XFCE which is very light, but some integrations are lacking, and it’s lightness shows in the basic appearance. Gnome is another beast, can almost look as slick as MacOS, but is very resource hungry. And then there’s KDE. This is something your either love or hate, no inbetween.
And for every task you want to perform, you’ll need to have a little selection process, since there’s a lot of choices.
Steam works most of the time. I only know about NVidia cards, but with the right drivers (for which Mint has a nice tool) it works well.
As said, I’ve used a lot of different Linux flavours, from very hacky and compily ones to very UX oriented ones. In the end, the UX one did it for me, I just wanted something that worked. So I do recommend Mint with cinnamon.
Okay great! An interesting tea combination: Mint with Cinnamon :) do most desktop environments work with most distros, or is there a list per each distro?
I second the Mint recommendation, but with your older hardware, I suggest using the version with Xfce instead of Cinnamon, as it’s lighter weight
Does a desktop environment really draw that much more resource than another?
Oh definitely. Though I’m not actually sure how heavy Cinnamon is. Xfce or LxQt are my preference, since my hardware isn’t great.
https://itsfoss.com/linux-mint-cinnamon-mate-xfce/ is a good comparison Mint-wise
I’ve added it to the list for review! Thank you!
is it possible? yeah, it’s linux, you can do whatever you want. but as a newcomer, I’d pick a distro + DE combo that you can install all at once as switching may not be the most straightforward process. when you want more control so you can set things up exactly the way you like them, there’s more DIY distros that make the process easier (because you don’t first have to remove the configuration that made the existing DE work the way it’s set up to work).
Okay that’s good to know. That will come later as I get more comfortable in the environment.
Most desktop enviornments work with most distros. There will be a selection of linux users that say it doesnt matter because though its true you can make any distro look like each other. The navigations can change depending on the distro you use. I agree with most of the comments here, since you are starting out, mint is a solid choice. You get the backings of ubuntu, + its very user frienldy. A gui for packages/drivers and good sweep of software for daily usage. Im using it now since my arc 380 gpu is supported on it to use as the host for my virtual machines. ( i virtualize other distros/BSD and windows [for those pesky windows only games/programs])
Thanks for the response!
Yes, most desktop environments work with most distros. And it is quite easy to switch between them.
Something I didn’t think about when my Linux journey started: A new desktop environment is exactly that. By installing a second environment you will end up with two different programs to open pictures, two different programs to open your files,… Not a problem, just very bloaty. So chosing the prefered desktop environment in the beginning is the easiest way.
More experienced users don’t choose a distro based on the desktop environments they come with but because of other factors… For me release cycle, package manager, stability and software philosophy were important and I installed Debian.
Would the programs I install while using one desktop environment not be accessible from the other desktop environment? Akin to installing software in a Windows computer and each user logging into that computer can access that software?
All programs you install while using one desktop environment are also accessible from the other desktop environment.
As with windows: you can have different users using different programs. If user A installs a programm it is not automatically accessible for user B (Edit: Not correct. His/her configs are not accessible, the program itself is.) User A can install two desktop environments, from both he/she can access every programm he/she has installed.
So if I wanted two users for instance, then I’d have to download an extra copy of each piece of software (one per user) to be able to access (if I wanted tk store them on the drive and not on the network?)
Sorry, I have to correct/specify myself: By installing a programm it is by default installed on every user account. The only things that are user specific are the config and personal files. So you can make the programm look and behave in every way you want, independent from other users.
So the program files are only once on the system, independent from the number of users. There are ways to make a program accessible for only one specific user, but I never tried that.
Okay I see. Thanks for the clarification!
Install Linux, get frustrated with it, reinstall windows and live with it - repeat for over a decade until you realise the last time you installed Linux you didn’t get frustrated and have been using it for the past two years.
Optionally, dual-boot until you can’t remember when you last booted into Windows.
Yes dual booting seems to be the way to go for a while so I’ve got my toes in the water but not lost the safety net just yet!
The only thing I’ll caution about dual boot is it means if you get stuck you abandon Linux all the way for Windows. Sometimes it just gets easier to go back.
When you get “settled” with your new Linux install I HIGHLY recommend you set up a Windows virtual machine (I used virtualbox but again there are… Options lol). With a VM, if you get frustrated and think “Fuck it why is this so hard?!” instead of abandoning your new Linux install you can just boot windows in a separate window and do what you gotta do. If this gets annoying you’ll figure out the Linux way instead of throwing the whole thing in the trash.
Okay so maybe ease myself in with dual boot, then Linux + virtual Windows, then Linux only. That seems like a good transition.
Keep in mind… I first installed Linux at Mandrake 7.1 (bit of digging will tell you how long ago that was) - it really did take me decades to become comfortable with it… What forced my hand was a few things, dealing with we servers remotely, writing code for them (via windows), and then android was what tipped the balance.
If I’m using a Linux like operating system in my pocket, coding for Linux remotely then what the hell am I dojng still running windows?
My main tips are: get the live ISOs of a few of the most used Linux distributions, I’d recommend in particular: Debian (my current one), Mint, Fedora and OpenSUSE.
For Debian and Fedora, get both the KDE and GNOME editions. OpenSUSE is mainly only KDE, and Mint uses Cinnamon. Those are the “desktop types”.
Try each live system on a virtual machine and see which one you like best. Your main choice tbh is the desktop environment you like the best (mine is KDE, also called Plasma), each distribution has it’s own way of doing a few things as well.
Then pick the one you enjoy the most. All of those are long-lived, stable and well-supported and documented.
Source: me, I’ve used Linux since 2003 and introduced all my family it and they have been using it for years with no issue.
What are the main differences between fedora and Debian?
Fedora with gnome is usually my go to distro, but I have been playing around with endeavor and arch.
Technical differences:
Fedora uses RPM for package format, and is made to work with the latest versions of software, so it’s almost a rolling release, and receives VERY constant updates (but it’s still solid). The only other release model is the SilverBlue/Kinoite which is all about having an immutable base system and managing your applications through Flatpak.
Debian OTOH uses the DEB package format, and comes in 3 update models:
- unstable (bleeding edge software, breaks may occur) with constant updates
- testing, or Sid (with actively tested software, more akin to Fedora’s main model. Stuff rarely goes wrong)
- stable (receives mostly security updates, focus on using battle-tested software versions. Ideal for servers and people who want their system to absolutely not go wrong. It’s my current pick)
Project differences:
Fedora is on paper “community driven” but it’s actually backed and steered on by RedHat. There’s also a current proposal about implementing telemetry (turned on by default).
Debian is entirely community-made and driven, with no big corporation being its owner and/or main sponsor, and it has a stronger focus on FOSS. It’s about as old as RedHat (both have their origins in the early 90s), so you can bet they’ll both be around basically forever.
Edit: both are great distros, mature, stable and easy to use. Fedora was previously my most beloved, but my relationship with it soured over RedHat’s leadership decisions. Don’t let my current salt take away from the review :')
Thanks!
You’re welcome, hope you enjoy your new Linux, whichever you choose ✨
I agree with this 100%. I’ve actually found that one distro can work out the box with my hardware, and another distro is impossible to use. I think it’s important to try out a few and see what appeals to you. Example, elementary os is pretty nice, but it almost seems vacant because it tries to mimic Mac. Zorin os is also really nice, but there’s something about it that just feels off. I recently installed endeavor os on a tablet PC, and everything is working out the box. I can’t believe how easy it was, and I’ve been using Linux on and off since 2004.
Okay great! I’ll give those each a try. Thank you!
Okay I’ll try out a few and keep notes on which ones I prefer until I make that “final” decision.
Have fun, I believe one of those will fit your needs just fine ✨
I’m sure they will! I appreciate it!
Be prepared to take a temporary hit in productivity as you learn. There will also be a degree of learning curve. Don’t get discouraged. When you do, take the advice that someone else pointed out of having a dual boot system so you can switch back to Windows. This way you won’t be tempted to nuke it and go back just to have a temporary break.
Good luck!
Thank you!
Thank you!
The biggest advice I can give is to start with something like, as has been mentioned, Linux Mint, but also, don’t buy into the idea that you eventually need to move to a more “advanced” distro. If Mint, or wherever you wind up, works for you, and you have no compelling reason to switch, then don’t. All Linux is Linux, so to speak, the only things that distinguish distros are packages/package managers, default settings/configurations, and pre-installed programs. There’s nothing preventing you from eventually becoming a power-user on a “noob-friendly” distro, if that’s something you desire in the first place.
Okay that’s good to know! Stick with one to get more comfortable until it doesn’t do something I need, basically?
Choosing a distro is sort of like driving a car. If you’re not a car person, you probably don’t particularly care what your vehicle’s 0-60 is, or how much torque your engine gets, or something else. You probably just want something that’s comfortable and looks nice.
As you learn about linux, you may become very interested in it, to the degree that you care about things like init systems and package management. In that case, there will be distros that suit your tastes. But if you don’t care, it’s perfectly ok to just something that feels comfortable and looks nice.
The people who are passionate about linux will have the loudest voices, and will make their favorite distro sound really good, because they are passionate. You don’t have to be that passionate, though. And if at some point you do become that passionate, you will likely be motivated to learn all the fine details on your own so you can make an informed decision that suits your own tastes, so you really won’t have to worry about matching someone else’s.
It’s good that people get excited about linux, but under the hood the distros are more alike than they are different. Don’t feel you need to have some specific distro experience to be part of the discussion: just use what you like, and if at some point you become dissatisfied, then consider changing.
That’s a great response! Thank you, that helps a lot.
Yep, pretty much. If your system works, no need to change it.
I started using Linux with a dual-boot and always booted back into Windows because it worked better since I set it up right and was confortable with it. Only booting Linux and taking the time to understand how to do whatever I want to do finally made me comfortable enough to wipe that partition.
So my recommendation is don’t be discouraged if things seem hard or annoying, it will definitely get better over time.
Chew
Okay I appreciate that advice!
I personally started on Linux Mint and after 6 months jumped to Artix. Mint is a very good base to learn and I recommend to just jump in and search everything you dont know how to do and eventually you will know enough to be comfortable using Mint.
Okay great! What made you make that jump?
I wanted to switch to KDE, had broken packages problems on Mint as some required newer ones but Mint did not yet have them and the AUR was a massive gain.
What made you want to change to KDE? Was it an issue with Mint’s (Cinnamon?) that made you want to change?
No, just that I customized the max out of Cinnamon and I wanted more options.
Did you also hate systemd or something?
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Step 1: Make a list of the software you use, and search online to see if they work on Linux.
Step 2: For the ones that don’t work on Linux, find alternatives and use them for a few days.
Step 3: Download a linux distribution’s iso into a pen drive, and boot from that. See how everything feels. (Don’t install it yet.)
Step 4: Install a linux alongside your Windows (i.e. dual-booting).
Step 5: When you realise that you are no longer using Windows, you can think of removing it, particularly if you’re short of disk space.
As for which distribution to use, I would suggest Linux Mint, but Pop OS and Ubuntu are also fairly beginner-friendly.
I second number 4.
Since Microsoft does what Microsoft does you might run into trouble with not being able to boot Linux after the first time you bored into windows again. It’s not a biggie. Google solutions and you will be able to restore Grub easily.
I run dual boot and I’ve been doing it for over 10 years. Best of two worlds.
Thank you! What does Grub mean?
Grub is a bootloader. Instead of starting Windows immediately when you turn on the computer there is a program called grub that is started. In grub you get a menu where you can choose what OS, Windows or Linux, you want to start.
Now, Microsoft doesn’t like that because in their world there is only one OS so why would you even need to choose? 😉 So what Windows does sometimes is to remove Grub and make sure the computer starts directly into windows.
If this happens you just Google and you will find how to boot up on your Linux DVD/USBstick and run some commands to get the menu (Grub) back.
Ah okay that makes sense. I wasn’t familiar with the term, but I’ve heard of bootloaders.
Remember that when you Google solutions, check the date on the results you get. A posted solution on Reddit from 2018 might not be adequate for your situation.
I appreciate the advice! Thank you!
You should dual boot windows and linux if you want to keep using the Oculus Rift because there is no chance to getting it working on linux.
In my opinion its better to first test out some distros in virtual box and use them for the tasks that you would usually use your computer for. I’d recommend trying out Ubuntu, Linux Mint, Fedora, Debian, and Pop OS. These are solid distros that work.
Once you find a distro that you like, you should start dual booting it. I got a second drive for that, before eventually copying all the files I needed over to the second drive and wiping the first drive to be my main after a year. (you can still access your windows files this way without losing any storage to linux) (steam games do not work when on windows partitions so you’ll still have to redownload games)
Oh, why would the Rift not work? Just no compatibility? I’ve used it with some Steam games which I thought I understood to work fine in Linux.
Yeah its not compatible, but also even with compatible headsets VR barely works. I have never gotten VR to work on linux myself.
Oh that’s a shame.
I don’t play it a ton, but didn’t want to completely lose the possibility of playing especially when friends or young family members come to visit.
The best way to switch imo is to first to switch some of your currently installed app on windows with others that have a linux version, so you will not be entirely lost when you switch os.
For example Microsoft Office is not available on linux so maybe try libreoffice or onlyoffice, another example Photoshop doesn’t have a linux version too.
Then maybe try to familiarize with the os on a vm or on a live usb, especially on a live usb so you know what works out of the box and with your hardware.
If you want to game look for you games on protondb if they work or not, for online games instead watch areweanticheatyeat to see if the anticheat work.
Last tip is to go with a know distro not something obscure like steamos or kali linux, they are not meant to be used as daily drivers especially kali and can give you problems that will not occurre in other distro!
Thank you for the tips!
No problem!
Okay thank you! Do you know of a good list of Linux compatible alternatives to Windows software? I’m sure I can track some down but may want to get familiar before making the jump like you said.
Tell me a software you use usually, and I’ll tell you the Linux equivalent
Typically I have a browser (Firefox), Blender for some 3D modeling, uTorrent, previously Plex (but wanting to move away from it to something like Jellyfin maybe), Microsoft Offjce products but mostly Word/Excel/PowerPoint, and I have Outlook on my work laptop but am used to using browser for email client as needed so thats not a huge priority if there isnt a good mail application. There are probably others but those are the most often or daily usage!
Dunno any, but if you maybe tell me the software you want to switch I can tell you the alternative available on both Linux and Windows if available.
I would check out AlternativeTo. You can search for programs you use (and filter by OS).
You have that answer in my guide I sent :D
Perfect, thank you!
Please pick a rolling distro with KDE Plasma. I would recommend Endeavour OS.
A rolling distro is the most similar thing to keeping a Windows installation in terms of updates if you don’t change the big version. You get constant updates, sure, but it’s also really more compatible because software is not frozen until the next OS release.
In contrast, a standard release distro is more akin to macOS. You install the OS, but every X (6? 9? 12?) months, you must upgrade to the next big thing. This presents 2 problems IMHO: you have to wait that long for updates you might need, and the upgrade might break a lot of things.
And KDE is a Desktop Environment. This is the look and feel of the desktop. In my experience, I tried Gnome, Cinnamon, and XFCE, thinking they might be more aligned with the FOSS philosophy. Then I tried KDE because I bought a Steam Deck, and I immediatly loved it and haven’t looked back. It’s that good.
Okay great! What are the improvements/benefits of KDE that make you say that?
Customization doesn’t break as often, and you opt out of features already built in, rather than installing third party extensions that might bug out with every update.
You feel like you can change KDE to your workflow, rather than feel the DE force you into a specific way of working.
Interesting. Thank you!
