why?
times have changed
Godamnit Einstein, not again.
they’re probably patching a security flaw, because we live in the future now and it is perfectly normal for a simple clock to have backdoors that can read your bank accounts
“My dishwasher is on the internet!” - “Why is on the internet?” - “To download software updates!” - “Why does it need software updates?” - “To fix security vulnerabilities!” - “Why would it have security vulnerabilities?” -“Because it’s on the internet!”
I never connected my refrigerator to the internet. Why the fuck would I need Bixby on my refrigerator? I don’t even use the voice assistant on my phone.
Yeah, I’m absurdly suspicious of pretty much everything connected to the internet these days. I’m suspicious of any cameras, of people randomly happening to take a picture with me in the background. I’m suspicious of talking out loud around my phone…the future sucks.
Although, thankfully the pandemic has given me a seemingly never-ending excuse to wear something over my face at all times.
haha, same, every time someone asks me for a pic i have to choose between refusing by making something up (bad hair etc), going with the privacy infodump, or accepting and just regretting it for my whole life
Yeah, I’m absurdly suspicious of pretty much everything connected to the internet these days. I’m suspicious of any cameras, of people randomly happening to take a picture with me in the background. I’m suspicious of talking out loud around my phone…the future sucks.
Although, thankfully the pandemic has given me a seemingly never-ending excuse to wear something over my face at all times.
And here we have why I have not connected my smart dishwasher to the Internet. Those 2 extra wash cycles don’t seem worth it. Especially considering I only ever use the most powerful sounding wash cycle.
I get that, I have a smart oven, washer, dryer and dishwasher. All connected to the internet (private guest network just in case), and they all send updates to one Telegram group chat using IFTTT. It’s pretty convenient to get updates when a device is done.
Mine just beep when they’re done.
The only two things that I like about smart appliances:
- remote preheat for the oven (ready to pop the frozen pizza in right when I walk in the door)
- cycle end notification for the washer (when I’m in the basement I can’t hear the sound to know when to move the clothes to the dryer)
I can’t imagine needing a notification on the dishwasher (I’m never wanting for it to finish to do something else) or refrigerator (just what even would it do).
I guess the smart control of the hvac is nice (turn it on when I’m on my way back from vacation so the temperature is perfect when I get home), but does that count as an appliance?
A notification you’ve left the fridge door open could be handy.
How often do you animals just leave the fridge standing open?
Ohhhh…kay, yes, you’re right. Dang, I want that now.
I love that “door open” warning of my fridge, and I also like that I get a notification when the fridge unexpectedly disconnects from the network (which usually means that the power has gone out, so I can go and check before all my food has died).
Also, the notifications when then laundry machine finishes are handy (so I can unload it and avoid smelly clothes).
BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP
“Sounds like I left the fridge open.”
Seriously, I can hear that beep anywhere in the house.
What about the sweaters in the oven?
Yeah, I would definitely want to know.
- remote preheat for the oven (ready to pop the frozen pizza in right when I walk in the door)
Most ovens these days have a sort of time delay feature so you can set it to turn on X hours from now. Though I will admit it’s more convenient not to have to estimate what time you’re gonna be home at. Still, there are definitely alternatives to using an internet-connected over.
- cycle end notification for the washer (when I’m in the basement I can’t hear the sound to know when to move the clothes to the dryer)
I already know my washing machine takes almost exactly 30 minutes to finish after I turn on the water. I just set a timer on my phone for that amount of time.
The delayed start requires planning ahead. I’m…not great at that.
As for the laundry cycles, my washer is variable on time depending on load size or dirt level or something. It’s rarely done by the time it estimates at the start.
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dumb me for using a timer on the washer /s
lol yep. If only. My washer adjusts the cycle time based on…well honestly I don’t know what. Load size? Dirtiness? So if it starts the cycle and says it’ll be an hour, it could be 55 minutes or it could be 85 minutes. There’s just no way to be certain. Gets everything clean, though.
We once invented multiple protocols, because doing everything over the same protocol is obviously a bad idea…
The fuck a smart dishwasher gonna do, play Mozart while my dishes get smashed around inside then receive a text message later saying “Oi it’s me ur dishwasher I just finished the dishes” while it plays Mozart again but at max volume until you waddle your fatass over and press the ‘shut the fuck up’ button?
Don’t forget lightbulbs.
https://support.sengled.com/hc/article_attachments/360041314774/mceclip3.png
Great plot for hackers 2.
The companies BUILD IN backdoors so that they can steal your data.
But because the backdoor is built in, they have to constantly monitor and update the security around it so that “bad guys” (they don’t think they are the bad guys) don’t get in.
They only do security updates to prevent liability iirc.
The whole thing stinks.
Note: I’m not a software developer just an outraged bystander with tech hobbies and techy friends, it’s possible this isn’t true.
It’s difficult to monetise data if you source it illegally (except in China maybe). Nobody reads the ToS anyway so it’s not like you need a backdoor.
I have been with a few companies as an engineer, and can at least confirm that you are right from my experience. Nobody really needs a backdoor to get massive amounts of data. The ToS for most software makes it so they can already do whatever they want with it. It’s pretty easy to get a lot of data just by having people use their services normally.
Why steal what’s being given away freely.
No need for backdoors when the front door is perfectly legal. The need to monitor for bad actors is still correct, though; mostly because they skimp on development costs and penetration testing. Like they say, “never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.” Or in this case, slashing budgets.
I hate Hanlon’s Razor with a passion. It’s just a way to introduce plausible deniability for cases that do involve malice. Not that this stuff necessarily is malicious, I just think it’s dumb to rule out maliciousness any time it could be incompetence.
If I were to rewrite Hanlon’s Razor today, I would update it as so: “Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence or indifference.” Because yes, it does introduce plausible deniability; but most of the most harmful things in our modern world aren’t malice, but simply big companies caring less about you than about their own precious profits, or politicians caring less about their constituents than about their kickbacks and campaigns.
But admittedly, the word “adequately” does do a lot of heavy lifting in the original and in my update, because I’d counter your (quite reasonable) objection with the corollary that if malice is evident, incompetence is no longer an adequate explanation.
In general, though, I’ve had simply too much experience in this world to believe that there’s a grand conspiratorial plan behind anything awful people do these days.
Good comment, I can agree with it. Though to address your last paragraph, I wasn’t trying to say that it’s usually maliciousness or best to assume it, I just don’t think it should be summarily dismissed.
I’d also say that there’s not much functional difference between a pattern of malice, incompetence, or indifference.
Totally true. Though you might address the various patterns differently (malice = legal action, incompetence = mandated education, indifference = financial penalty), the results of the patterns are often the same.
Right, it’s just a front door lol. I never considered that was a thing.
What would the “front door” even be in this case? What comes to my mind is the corresponding app on your phone, but that doesn’t really make sense in this context.
In this case, the “front door” would just be not hiding it. Normal, un-hidden APIs. A back door is usually something that the developer includes without informing the user, but they don’t need to be surreptitious; there’s no legal reason to pretend that they’re not collecting the data, and unless you’ve built your brand on privacy and security, there’s no business reason to do so either in the current cultural climate.
And given that the appliance needs to communicate with the app on your phone while you’re not home in the first place, there probably isn’t even a separate tracking API vs. data just being harvested as part of normal operations. So “back door” doesn’t really fit. “Broken by design” or “spyware” would be more apt, I think.
Still, I’m really not a fan of calling any spying/data harvesting a “front door” – IIRC, the term was coined by an FBI head pushing for back doors in our phones so the FBI could scan our messages. But he called it a “front door” as a way to dodge the reasons why building back doors in our security software is a terrible idea.
It’s just another step in the terrible trend of “let’s pretend that this horrible idea is ok if we just rename it” :(
My biggest question to this type of thing is, what data? Why is it you’re all so concerned about a tech company knowing how you use their services or what you’re spending your money on?
The only ones I’m worried about doing that are foreign owned companies that operate in realms where my personal data could be actively harmful. I don’t use TikTok because our only real military adversary is using it to assemble Petabytes worth of data on Western populations which they can turn into cyberware via reactionary propaganda.
Know what I don’t care about? Doordash knowing what I’m more likely to spend my money on. Microsoft trying to sell me an Office365 subscription.
“Outraged bystander” yeah, clearly. Most of you are just parrots who follow the FOSS crowd but don’t know enough to actually vet their information. You think they’re all these full stack programmers who have deep insights but most of them are just paranoid hobbyists who think any shred of data on their spending habits = the end of the free world. As if Wingstop knowing your propensity of eating dry rub versus buffalo is worth anything at all beyond trying to sell you a product.
So what kind of parrot are you? It’s not unusual to want to restrict who can snoop on you, even for trivial information. I’ve worked on embedded software - what gets logged and reported can get downright obnoxious.
I’m not sure if it’s getting better, but I’m seeing less of it these days. It could just be that I’m working for better companies though.
The more a company knows about you, the more money they can make out of you. For example, cab companies have been caught increasing prices for customers whose phone batteries were dying.
Unless you are a journalist, high-ranking civil servant or military officer, foreign governments aren’t usually a huge threat. You are most likely not worth their time, and (apart from maybe the US) it’s not like they can actually do anything to you.
I didn’t say that me as an individual was worth the time of a foreign government, because I’m not talking about one off events like someone wanting information on me specifically.
I’m talking about the attempt by foreign nationals to undermine our entire society by preying on social media and misinformation. The kind of shit thats been affecting people on Facebook for years now and thats being used to affect the Tiktok algorithm as well.
Fair point. But if a foreign government can use Facebook / TikTok data to undermine society, can’t big companies or other interest groups do the same? More importantly, can’t Facebook or TikTok do the same? At least governments have checks and balances, and are at least theoretically accountable to their people. Companies can do whatever they like.
Companies don’t need to follow laws? Last time I checked the reason they can “do whatever they want” is the same as the government’s. Because no one ever fucking holds their feet to a fire. In theory both entities are held to standards, in reality neither are.
Companies don’t need to follow laws?
Many do follow the law, but have the law written to their convenience. Why bother stealing data when you can get it for free from people who don’t know any better?
The only ones I’m worried about doing that are foreign owned companies that operate in realms where my personal data could be actively harmful.
Later on when the “good guys” have a change in leadership to someone who’s just a bit more ruthlessly profit-driven, they already have all your data.
Because it can be used against you in one way or another. You never know were the data end up at. It could leak or the government force them to give the data and lower your score in any system.
What score in what system?
That is the point, we dont know what system they will come up with in the future. Lets build a social score system that we use to tax you economical and take past data into account. Hint China.
Megaman Battle Network was prophetic. You’re just living daily life and then a terrorist kills your child by hacking the AC.
Thank you. I forgot about that game. I had meant to play it for some time.
They are just getting you ready for Time 2.
Its faster and greener, with advertisements tailored to your interests!
Trying to get Windows 11 to show seconds.
Click the clock on the taskbar, which has worked as far as I remember, maybe even before Windows 95. Notifications and calendar pop up but no seconds.
Search “seconds” in settings. Apparently you can only have them shown on the taskbar permanently (with implied distraction and CPU usage).
Look in time settings. No seconds, either.
Open the Clock app. The update takes a minute. No seconds there, either.
Search the internet. Apparently this is a function Microsoft disabled in Windows 11 but can be restored with Explorer Patcher, along with the option to set taskbar transparency via Classic Shell (so that you can watch the status in another window while others are maximized).
Don’t have time for that, install Linux instead
(I’m not even kodding. The only place where a vanilla Windows 11 installation will show seconds in GUI is a very obscure page deep in the unintuitive jungle of settings. Interesting that a $3 watch does something a Windows computer with a million times more transistors doesn’t.)
I also like Linux btw
People love novelties.
Is Linux a novelty?
3% desktop marketshare says yes.
Welcome to Clock 2.0, the new time and reminder experience from Microsoft! Powered by Bing AI and Microsoft OneDrive.
- Sync your time zones, alarms, and reminders to all your devices via Microsoft OneDrive
- Get suggested wake-up times powered by Bing AI and your calendar!
- Use of Clock is governed by the Microsoft Cloud Connected Experiences Privacy Policy (click here to view).
- Click I Agree to start your use of Microsoft Clock!
and for all this, your alarm reminders become yet another datapoint for personalized ads, your phone alarm to wake you up then plays at full blast through the living room computer and wakes everybody else up, and you agreed to a 750kb privacy policy that displays in a 2"x3" window with 500 pages to scroll through.
Note: A connection to Microsoft OneDrive is required.
Timers will not trigger without an Internet connection.through the living room computer and wakes everybody else up
Are you not switching your computer off at night?
Finally! Time v1 hasn’t had an update in 4.54 billion years.
Time 2
Which we can tell on theclock 2
Do we lose another eleven days during the switchover?
We have altered the Clock app. Pray we do not alter it further.
It will now report home every timer you’ve ever set, what names you gave them, and what browser tabs were open at the time.
“We’re making the clock app cloud enabled! Now you’ll be able to set and clear alarms from any of your Windows™ connected devices! We’ve also implemented customisable actions with PowerShell scripting now fully integrated! Want your display to show a lovely sunrise every morning? Clock App can do it!”
Next minute -
"Security update 13112023-33: A malicious user can access the internet-exposed ClockAccess™ interface on your devices, setting alarms with scripted actions that can cause complete loss or exfiltration of your data.
To mitigate this issue, we have shifted ClockAccess™ to a more secure, fully cloud-based service. This also means that once updated, the application will be unavailable if there is no internet access. Please adjust your usage of the application accordingly.
As the Clock app runs under a Local Administrator account on consumer versions of Windows™ and Domain Administrator on Windows Server™ machines, this is a high priority update and it will be installed on application startup without user confirmation. You may notice increased resource utilisation by the Clock App, this is a necessary increase due to new and improved security features. It is recommended that at least one vCPU and 1.5GB of memory be made available at all times for efficient operation of the app."
But not what time you set the timers for. That’s in a future update
This deal is getting worse all the time!
Incoming the switch to Linux tribe…
Sir, do you have a minute to talk about our lord and savior Linux?
No, no Its GNU/Linux Lol
That’s a very conservative take
I’d just like to interject for a moment.
You haven’t really lived until you’ve played UT2K4 on Hannah Montana linux.
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I don’t disagree.
For the first time, I am actually dual booting with Mint and using it. Honestly, it wouldn’t be a thing without Proton. Props to Valve!
🐧🐧🐧🐧
Windows users get so pissy when you tell them they’re doing it wrong.
You should see Linux users when you tell them that the problems they have with Windows haven’t been a thing since XP
You guys are just very annoying. We all know linux exists but I kinda like being able to play all games I want without needing to check if my OS can handle it lmao
Linux can handle pretty much everything on Windows. Very few games can’t be run through Proton or similar.
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While the ProtonDB website exists, I’ve never had to check it, every game I purchased through Steam or GoG (Bottles) just ran. /shrug
That’s an old trope you’re wielding around like a club.
Also, as far as the annoying part, it’s not about a competition and we want to win, it’s that we’re trying to pull you out of the water and into the lifeboat, but you keep insisting on drowning in the ocean.
Any app that chooses to update or ask you a bunch of questions when you just want to use it CAN GET FUCKED. Open a loyalty app: would you like to rate our app? No. Would you like to see nearby deals? NO. Notifications for nearby deals would be useful… NOOO! Earn double points tomorrow… MOther F*)(&^*&(%!!1
Exactly, the app should install updates in the background and apply them after the app is closed.
I’d even settle for an unobtrusive modal asking what to do like a “yes | no | never | settings” kind of deal
I like the way AppImages work on my Kubuntu system:
They automatically update themselves in the background and then trigger a system notification letting you know the app will be updated the next time you close it, with a button to initiate it now.
Every time I open filezilla and notepad++ I’m in for an update. Fucking annoying.
So you’re getting rid of Steam, right?
If this was a Linux update, which makes no sense because how can you not fully debug a 5 function clock app, it would be so inconsequential you’d never know it was patched.
MS? LETS INTERRUPT YOUR ENTIRE WORKFLOW SO THAT WE CAN PUSH 49 NEW LIBRARIES NECESSARY TO RUN OUR CLOCK APP
5 minutes later in ask lemmy, “DAE too many Linux posts?! BRB need to reboot windows for the 30th time today.”
Plus Linux could update it in the background while the app is running. There’s no reason windows can’t do these things, and yet, it can’t.
It can’t, really. What Linux will do (and Windows won’t) is delete old files and replace them with new ones while they are still in use. But this has two problems.
- It can lead to stability issues. See e.g. Firefox, which refuses to open new tabs and can’t shut down cleanly if you update using the package manager while the browser is running. If you replace a binary executable in use and it later tries to load a shared library dynamically, it will get an unexpected version of that shared library which can potentially lead to memory corruption. Similar problem if the program tries fork+exec itself to create more instances (like Firefox and Chrome do).
- It won’t actually update the running process in memory, so even if you install security fixes your system will still be vulnerable. To be safe after e.g. fixes to libc you really need to reboot your system, but most distributions hide this fact from the user.
Windows could certainly opt for a similar solution as Linux. They just chose a stricter and more reliable model for file locking, for good or bad. For what it’s worth I personally prefer the Linux model, but that’s because I know to reboot my system after updating it. I don’t trust my dad to take that social responsibility so he needs to be forced.
Outside of the kennel a reboot is not necessary you just restart the app/service it’s really not rocket science.
9.9/10 times you just need to log out and log back in.
Updating a shared library requires an understanding of which services (and interactive programs) use that shared library. There’s a lot of room for mistakes. So while restarting specific services can be worth it for a high-availability server, for a desktop PC I find it easier and less error-prone to just restart the machine. If you are really keen to avoid going into POST you can use kexec.
You’re wrong about everything
But… But… He explained in a very organized manner, so it must be true, right?
I am rubber, you are glue
So you’re a condom?
I work at night and Windows loves to push Windows Updates at night regardless of my normal work schedule.
Take a trip to the bathroom or just don’t move the mouse for a few minutes and Windows will reboot (fuck whatever you had running) and spent an hour or two installing an update (fuck the rest of your night)
Linux doesn’t ever try to force itself on you like that, it’s a respectable OS
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There’s a configuration file you can edit to prevent that. The Flatpak configures this automatically for you.
Linux distros usually raises a reboot required flag. But thats usually to complete some kernel or system update. Windows just go ahead and reboot on update ruining the workflow.
When you get the message to reboot ignore it and do your work. Then shutdown after doing it. Turn on when you need it the next time. And its all well
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“updates were installed, you should reboot”.
But I think you can ignore it, the updates just will not take effect until you reboot.
“DAE too many Linux posts?! BRB need to reboot windows for the 30th time today.”
That’s a strawman argument, I can’t remember the last time I had to reboot Windows, and the last few updates have only taken a few minutes. They also install on shutdown most of the time.
I use Windows on both my work and home PC. I had to reboot both twice today. I’ll probably be switching my home PC to Linux over the holiday weekend.
That would be for the best, cause it seems you aren’t really capable of using Windows properly
Linux bros really a blight on lemmy
Microsoft is a blight on humanity.
Tell that to all the businesses running on it.
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For some reason windows will update their own app from their own app store, and then immediately apply another update when you open the app.
Their whole system is so hacked together.
I would like to move into a paradigm of no software updates for things software updates are not appropriate for.
You’ve seen clock. How about CLOCK 2.0, with customizable options like crypto AI blockchain?
And we made it better by removing several features, but we made the font really big and thin, and added a bunch of whitespace around everything so it takes up a ton of room. That makes it modern and “accessible,” see?
hate how the touchscreen paradigm of windoes 8 never left
And updates at non-intrusive times for the rest. I’ve been late for so many meetings when Zoom insists on doing some painfully slow update. (I know I could open it 5 minutes earlier but it’s still a bad user experience.)
Well, either roll such updates out centrally, which Windows is capable of, I don’t know why they don’t use it here.
Or make it an entirely optional download, where the user can decide when to download.
Or just make the update process less shit. Don’t block usage until the update is applied. And ideally just swap out the files in the background, although unfortunately that really isn’t easily doable on Windows.
roll such updates out
This seems counter to the goal of not having updates
Yes, I was listing ways this could be solved without throwing out the baby with the bath water. For one, to point out that they really did actively choose the worst option.
But also, because as a professional software developer, I’m sympathetic to needing to roll out updates, even if they’re not security-relevant, since you can’t perfect your code before shipping.Having said that, I do think, the professional/commercial software development model is terrible for such basic utility applications. Use an open-source application instead, where the hobbyist dev does have the time and passion to perfect the code before shipping it.
I just want owning a piece of software to be like owning a physical object again. It has its own look, it’s own behaviors and quirks, and you choose it for those and come to rely on it for what it is and what it does. That this can all be pulled out from under you at any time without your say-so runs counter to user agency.
Also, as a developer I’m just lazy and want to be able to publish projects and then not have to keep updating them for 20 years.
Duh, obviously you need to create a windows account to use the clock app 🙄
shit drives me bonkers. I tried to get the Dolby Atmos plugin. Has to be done on the store, which HAS to be signed into windows. No i dont want any of that. let me buy it from your site and redeem a code or something. I dont want to sign into the store. at all.
I just went with the alternative. Installing the logitech control software, restricting its internet access but using its dolby DTS features.
Is that a paid app?
Because as dumb as the Windows Store is, you can still download and install anything provided it’s a free app without a Microsoft account still. I just tried it and it still works, although I didn’t try an exhaustive list of apps. If it gives you a pop up nagging about a Microsoft account, just cancel out of the log in pop up and the app will still download and install.
It is. You are allowed to download it as it has a trial. But when it’s time to pay the only way is through a logged in account on the Microsoft store.
For your food windows?
I misread that, too. With punctuation, it would be:
…for my food. Windows, why?!
(They’re addressing the Windows operating system.)
Windows: Feed me!
with your dataOrder corn
Just yesterday it requested me to verify my account (with a full UAC dialog) before opening the clock app. I guess it was trying to sync (?) the custom alarms/timers (??) between my devices (???) but… WTF, Microsoft.
Image Transcription: Windows Software Dialog Box
Clock
Clock needs an update. We are getting the update ready for you…
A stopwatch icon is shown.
Ah yes I need to update my lock so I can get the latest ads and spyware.
And once again the community proves that it needs renamed to c/MicrosoftSucks because that’s the only type of content you’ll find here.
The early pioneers of Lemmy are mostly software developers. Software memes will remain overrepresented until more diverse waves of people join.
Which is why they won’t join, they see it as being only a place for vegan Linux bros. It’s a self destructive cycle that you can only end with better moderation.
Then become a moderator!
Great advice! Up there with telling homeless people to “Just buy a house.”
You forgot about reposted pictures of restaurant receipts.
