so if you haven’t come across it, see here , here , here and here .

in short, one side says sources are pro-imperialist, the other side believes they’re legitimate sources. then there is one user thinking we have been targeted by troll farms, one accusing others of being conspiracy theorists and stuff like that. it’s one of the most unproductive arguements I’ve seen on Lemmy, something that looks like one those downvoted-to-oblivian threads on reddit. it’s just a mess.

I think we can do a few things to prevent such pointless fights in the future:

  1. my favoriate response would be creating a community of fact-checker Lemmurs. it’ll function similar to a wikipedia talk page, anyone can request a trial for an article shared on c/worldnews , then they will present evidence and sources to challenge the article, while the other side attempts to do the same. personal attacks, accusing of being a troll, asking for a call on jitsi to debate face to face (like seriously?!?!) will be forbidden. both sides will debate untill they reach an agreement. trying to go off-topic, bad faith arguements etc will be forbidden as well.

each time we reach a conclusion, a positive or negative point will be assigned to news source and to the person who posted it. best contributers who show the least bias will get a point as well. overtime it will help us to see if a source is really good or not.

  1. a much easier approch would be to let downvotes and upvotes decide the fate of each post. I understand that this is the whole point of lemmy and similar platforms, but right now we have the problem of each side using downvotes and upvotes like it’s a battle. posts about internet censoreship and tiny pigs are being downvoted because the person who posts them trusts the Guardian and other news outlets.

  2. we can limit the number of posts on c/worldnews to minimize the amount of personal attacks and arguements.

so what do you think? I personally think as more users come to lemmy, we’ll be dealling with more diverse opinions, and people might just engage in behaviors that harms the platform and benefits no one. this will be a real problem considering that Lemmy leans far-left. in my opinion having a fact-checking community will be neccessary if we don’t want fact-based communities turn into battlefields.

ps: am I going too far and overreacting? to be honest I don’t know xD I just think there’s no chance for productive political arguements if we can’t agree on the facts, and i see no point in what’s happening on c/worldnews right now.

  • soferman@lemmy.ml
    85·
    4 years ago

    I’ve been asked to join the discussion.

    TBH I don’t know what to really say.

    Here is some context: I’m not saying stuff like inviting to a Jitsi chat just to random people. These are people who engage in every political and news related discussions and blasting it with their sources, graphics and alternative history to things. I’ve come to have a lengthy relationship with a lot of these people since I joined Lemmy for the first time.

    I’ve been at odds with two of the developers about them not believing in current and historical genocides, like the cultural genocide of the Uighurs in China.

    I remember trying to give some level headed information when the Israel and Palestine conflict, then (some of them are the actual developers of lemmy) blasted it with all their stuff, pushing for basically just crushing Israel. (I don’t think I argued much with them about it in the thread, but I later reacted strongly when one of the developers of lemmy posted an article about “Israel needs to be defeated”.

    These people I repeatedly butt heads with. People who are beyond far left. And there is a lot of stuff I genuinely regard as grose, like the previously mentioned denial of current and historical genocides.

    I could tone down my antagonizing against these people, but they are also the people who engage the most with my posts. I wouldn’t be suprised if there is a thread for me out there discussing me among these people as well, or a group convo of some kind.

    I think the #worldnews group or any Lemmy group is a pretty nice way for discovering content, so it’s something I’d like to contribute to. TBH I have an itch to share stuff, and that itch gets scratched good on Lemmy.

    But for solutions I have none. I might be a part of the problem.

    I think things will likely be better if the community grows more, because I think the impact of people on #lemmygrad or me would be less loud if there were more other voices.

    But yeah, most of my interactions on Lemmy are communists, anarcho communists or social stalinists or similar who call me like a far-right person even though I personally identity as a social democrat, which is kind of annoying.

    Edit: A fact checking group could be fun, but it could go wrong as well.

    @ozoned@lemmy.ml also did a good post that I like.

    • tronk@lemmy.ml
      5·
      4 years ago

      Thanks for your self-aware and prosocial approach in this reply— although I’m sure that if a reader thinks genocide didn’t really happen, your designation of genocide-denial as gross wouldn’t really be seen as prosocial. But besides that, my point still stands. I’m sure having a post like this, dedicated, in a way, to you, could be discouraging.

      Disclaimers…

      I worry that, given the context of this thread, this makes it seem as if I’m a liberal/imperialist. I’m sure I haven’t adopted a critical-enough stance. I wish I had it, I genuinely wish I would read more Anwar Shaikh or Noam Chomsky, for example, especially if reading them and adopting a more critical stance still enables me to be kind and understanding in discussions. However, I also think I am currently able to be harshly critical of liberalism. I hope saying this makes it visible that I am open to reading about Nazis in NATO, as I am about Uyghur genocide.

      Saying that also forces me to say that I don’t believe ‘the truth is in the middle’. That’s a fallacy. But these are two lines of discourse (Nazis in Nato and Uyghur genocide) that I think deserve my attention, given the stakes at hand, the sources presented, and my interests.

      I’m not really sure where I’m going with that, but I guess I am defending myself preemptively from attacks that degrade discussion. How else would someone express their disagreement? I think kindness can help.

      Why kindness and understanding are not hippy-dippy kumbaya, but strategic rhetorical tools

      Why? Because, while I think cancel culture* signals a shift in values that are largely more inclusive and therefore positive, it can also backfire. It can convince those who are in the middle (1st rule of thumb) that the accusing/cancelling extreme is excessive, and side with the backfiring/conservative extreme.

      What to do if not cancel? Swaying, showing how the world would be better if we thought or acted, not that way, but this way. Inglehart, the author who wrote the ‘backfire’ paper, also works with Welzel, who shows how education and the internet/interconnectivity are changing values around the world like never before. This shows that changes in values, and everything that that entails, is possible. In short amounts of time.

      Disclaimer 2

      And yet I’ve seen plenty of people in Lemmy making amazing contributions with super interesting articles or websites, posted in good faith and with the intent of teaching. I’m really glad to see this happening.

      * I use “cancel culture”, but I’m not convinced that’s an appropriate way of describing the interactions OP is referring to. And yet it resembles what I’m trying to describe… Regardless, my point about backlash, those in the middle, and swaying still stands.

      • soferman@lemmy.ml
        52·
        4 years ago

        I could try to be ideal and try to be more rhetorically effective or ‘prosocial’ which is a word I just learnt. But when I post I usually just want to share how I’m feeling. Being overly ideal ends up being kind of fake and not really genuine, and those are genuine feelings that have value. Maybe I’m not making a net positive, but then if I changed there would be another taking my place.

        But that’s why it interesting to see solutions for how to regulate and nudge content for everyone’s benefit. And conflict isn’t necessarily a bad thing, it’s engaging and all that. But I imagine people react to a type conflict which I also have to be honest about that I don’t enjoy.

        And it’s been particularly upsetting getting comments calling formel primeminister of Norway and current general secretary of NATO a supporter of neo nazis. During his time as a primeminister we (Norway) experienced the most traumatizing event in Norway’s history (since world war 2 when nazi-germany attacked and occupied Norway). A right wing extremist bombed the government house (hoping to kill the current general secretary of NATO) and going to a summer camp hosted by the youth party of the party that (the general secretary of NATO) was leader of at the time where the terrorist shot and killed nearly a hundred politically active teenagers all trapped on a small island where the summercamp took place. The right-wing extremist accused the party for trying to implement communism through their social reforms as well as accusing them for trying to muslimize Norway.

        • Helix@lemmy.ml
          4·
          4 years ago

          Yeah, I think the main problem currently seems to be you’re trying to shout louder than the admins. Try to be more rhethorically defined, don’t throw ad hominems, be precise and not overgeneralising. Otherwise you’re just promoting that kind of behaviour as acceptable. Sure, the other side might attack you personally, but this is not a contest who’s first or who has the ultimate truth. Try to stick to the facts. Don’t shoot back, try to disarm.

        • tronk@lemmy.ml
          3·
          4 years ago

          Oof… you’re touching upon an issue I’ve discussed quite a bit with a group of friends: the tension between effective rhetoric and expressing your true inner feelings. We’ve had these discussions in the context of different types of asymmetrical power relationships, but we often talked about the experience of one of those friends who is gay.

          My highschool friend

          He grew up being constantly being bullied, including constant jabs from the very same friend-group. Yes, we were regressive, asshole brats; as you may imagine by my tone, this has changed quite a bit. Anyway, the thing is, we changed as a friend-group partly because of the incidentally (or not) inclusive media we consumed. We also changed partly because one of us who went overseas to a hyper-inclusive intentional community would systematically point out micro-aggressions. For example, when someone would say “Oh, he’s such a removed” to mean that someone is weak or fearful, this woke friend would badger them with deliberately nonchalant stuff like “Oh, how could you tell his sexuality based on [that behavior]?” or “Oh, I didn’t know he was into men”. Finally, we were able to change partly because none of us had our identities particularly tied to a regressive expression of a religion or some other ideology (with “ideology” defined in the broadest possible terms).

          But that’s not the point. The point is that my friend hated the whole regressive behavior we had. And although he hinted at how he felt by brushing us off with “Alright, alright. Leave me alone”, back then he never expressed his emotions in terms of feeling alone, different, hated, fearful, even disgusting at times… Today he’s able to be more candid with us, and so are we. We can all talk frankly about being fearful of a declining romantic relationship, of having screwed up flirting, of the uncertainties and the shitty certainties aging, of being lost career-wise —you know, the total opposite of stereotypical cisgender men like James Bond.

          But I can’t help but wonder whether my friend could’ve changed our regressive views by expressing his awful experience candidly. Honestly, I’m not sure it would’ve worked. We would’ve needed very different schemas to internalize his plight, schemas that we just didn’t have until much later. At the same time, his own experience, expressed strategically, could’ve created those inclusive schemas. But that rhetorical work, which is usually in the hands of capable artists and witty activists, would be too much to ask from a preteen.

          My American friend

          This is quite a different scenario to another, unrelated, friend. She grew up in a poor, white, and overwhelmingly Evangelical American city. She used to go by the Fox News discourse of the time, of which the most laughably absurd talking point was the whole “Obama, show us your birth certificate”. She ate that up… And her best friend didn’t. Her best friend sat down again and again to talk about these topics, showing her sources, asking critical questions. Eventually, my friend came around and she recognized how absurd her previous point of view was. Today, she’s incredibly grateful at the work her friend put into having her re-think her views.

          My neighbors

          A last example: my neighbors. They have a dog. It barks all the time. It’s left alone all the time. It’s had no training. The owners themselves told me they don’t like dogs. They have it because their son went overseas and left the dog home. The barking drives me crazy. I try to study and I just can’t think when his barking spouts begin… The law isn’t on my side either: I talked to a lawyer and the most that we can do is get the police to knock on their door and tell them to get their shit together. And so now, my daily life is navigating the tension between (1) wanting to yell in their face about how insensitive they are to leave the dog suffering all day long and how incredibly incompetent they are as owners, and (2) having to approach them with an effective solution. I’ve spent so many hours reading about dog-training, rhetorical tools, how humans change… ugh… it’s been a ride. And, by approaching them strategically, it has improved: now they give the dog walks daily (which is not really a solution to the barking, but at least it makes the dog’s day more interesting) and now they let the dog into the house when they’re not out working. But when they leave the house, so does the dog, and the barking begins…

          This whole thing is not so structured, but I’m just trying to let you see where I see the tension between being candid and being strategic. My ideal solution would be to find ways being candid in a rhetorically effective way. But this puts the burden of work on the hands of those who are suffering… and that sucks. Yet I think it’s what I have to continue doing to fix the dog issue, among many other things I’m interested in changing in the world.

    • soferman@lemmy.ml
      64·
      4 years ago

      Oh, geese. I didn’t see the comments talking about me being paid to post articles on #worldnews and me and another guy being a part of a “troll farm” which I don’t know what is, but I imagine it’s like a dogpiling thing.

      But if I could be paid to post articles on a group that be great. But it’s also very grose and conspiratorial :/

    • BrownJenkin@sopuli.xyz
      1·
      4 years ago

      We could have a !liberalnews ghetto where non-communist news sources are allowed to be shared freely.

      • soferman@lemmy.ml
        2·
        4 years ago

        It would be basicly a crosspost group, but I wouldn’t be against it. :)

        Although I think having a big news group that everyone uses is most beneficial for lemmy and makes such a group more usefull.

        • BrownJenkin@sopuli.xyz
          1·
          4 years ago

          If you know that I am wrong, could you give counter examples?

          In my experience, Internet “communities” of faceless nobodies are a kind of ratchet to echo chambers.

          There is a drift to homogeneity no matter what you do. These are not places for pluralism or diversity.

          The Lemmy algorithms are not different from those of Reddit, so… but you can try, and you evidently do, so… good luck anyways.

    • TheAnonymouseJoker@lemmy.ml
      54·
      4 years ago

      blasting it with their sources, graphics and alternative history to things

      the cultural genocide of the Uighurs in China

      I remember trying to give some level headed information when the Israel and Palestine conflict, then (some of them are the actual developers of lemmy) blasted it with all their stuff, pushing for basically just crushing Israel

      the previously mentioned denial of current and historical genocides

      I love how you take a jab at people with calling them alternative truthers, like others do not state facts and you are the arbiter of truth getting victimised. That speaks a bunch about you, honestly.

      You called Grayzone propaganda, right, while defending CNN, BBC as established, reputed news media? https://lemmy.ml/post/67429

      You want to know about Uyghur genocide? Try to debunk a single point in this long video and do come back for a debate here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yURIS7S9zg

      You want to know about Israel-Palestine conflict? Use news sources with no economic conflict of interest.

      my Palestinian friend chat

      You want to have a conversation and not destroy Lemmy?

      • Stop spamming news media of one kind of political ideology (and use fungal cream for those itches),
      • stop claiming biased Western neoliberal and neocon warmongering media as reputed,
      • stop claiming others are alternative conspiracy truthers without factual backing,
      • refute arguments without memes or trolling,
      • stop supporting and pushing false political narratives,
      • be prepared to get egged on if you push false narratives,
      • stop trying to divide community for making space for yourself
      • try to foster and aid a nice environment

      Come back for the Uyghur genocide and Israel-Palestine debates. Let me end your selective human rights concerns and doubts here, so that you never try to resurrect these topics until any new developments from non propagandist sources appear for them to become a talking point.

      You can also debate with me human rights concerns about Middle East, Belarus, Libya, South Asia, Central and South American countries if you like, since you are so concerned about human rights from the imperialist news sources you like to read. Spoiler: you keep getting played and you like it to avoid boredom

      Edit: our awesome fellow instantly downvoted me, LOL

      screenshot

      • Helix@lemmy.ml
        4·
        4 years ago

        Can you remove all the insults and stick to facts? You don’t display a very deescalative language. Just throwing in some random youtube link proves nothing. BBC is established and certainly not the complete mouthpiece you claim it to be. There’s a difference between biased western media and western propaganda outlets. It’s not like the BBC is just a random asshat’s blog…

        • TheAnonymouseJoker@lemmy.ml
          14·
          4 years ago

          If you claim that a 1.5 hour video with 20+ sources is a random YouTube link, then it may be the case that you are the problem. Sorry mate, BBC is UK government propaganda outlet and that is facts. BBC is somewhat Queen Elizabeth and the Royal Family’s blog, as far as political news goes.

          • Helix@lemmy.ml
            51·
            4 years ago

            a 1.5 hour video with 20+ sources

            Mhk. Most sources are twitter, reddit, other youtube videos and pro-Chinese blogs and media outlets. From clicking through, not a very unbiased discussion of a topic, especially adding that the guy wears a fucking balaclava and the title is clickbait. This is not neutral reporting.

            Small domain name statistics on the google doc with ““sources””:

             24 youtube.com
 16 twitter.com
  8 globaltimes.cn
  4 thegrayzone.com
  3 reddit.com
  2 medium.com
  1 chinese-embassy.org.uk
  1 congress.gov
  1 csis.org
  1 docdroid.net
  1 documents.buzzfeednews.com
  1 historicly.substack.com
  1 i.redd.it
  1 law.cornell.edu
  1 ned.org
  1 quora.com
  1 sydney.chineseconsulate.org
  1 translate.google.com
  1 un.org
  1 xinhuanet.com

            Since they claim themselves

            We did not have time to put the bibliography information on this, but these are the links that appear in the order of the video. We are able to continuously update this list if needed!

            I can’t be arsed to jump to the corresponding parts of the 1.5h video with sources other than social media sites either, since the majority of the video seems to be about youtube and twitter content. Ain’t nobody got time fo’ dat.

          • Lowey@lemmy.ml
            11·
            4 years ago

            BBC does have bias, but that does not mean they make up Uyghur genocide and the cultural dissemination of the Uyghur people.