Maybe you haven’t been convinced by a good enough argument. Maybe you just don’t want to admit you are wrong. Or maybe the chaos is the objective, but what are you knowingly on the wrong side of?
In my case: I don’t think any games are obliged to offer an easy mode. If developers want to tailor a specific experience, they don’t have to dilute it with easier or harder modes that aren’t actually interesting and/or anything more than poorly done numbers adjustments. BUT I also know that for the people that need and want them, it helps a LOT. But I can’t really accept making the game worse so that some people get to play it. They wouldn’t actually be playing the same game after all…
I think TTRPGs should be unbalanced. Balance is a construct of games, and the fictional worlds the players will interact with are less immersive when everything is predictably tuned and equal. I think the fiction of a rogue being about as good as a fighter at combat is stupid. I think rust monsters and undead creatures that hurt your stats are way better than dire boars and skeletons who just shoot you with bows. I think that when rocks fall, things should die. These all contribute to the fantasy world seeming more dangerous, more ‘real’, like a spectral hand isn’t shielding you from the worst the world has to offer.
I also recognize this is my dark fantasy bias yapping away
Adding an easy or “story” mode to a game doesn’t inherently make it worse. You can still play it with difficulty cranked up to “Dark Souls” or whatever. The fact that there is a separate mode that others can use does not affect you; you need not use it yourself.
“Story mode” is actually an accessibility option in disguise: it can let people who have difficulty with fine motor control, reaction times, or understanding visual and auditory prompts to enjoy the art alongside everyone else. Instead of cheapening the game, it actually expands its influence on the world.
All that being said, no, no game is strictly obligated to be accessible, but why cheapen your art by not making it so?
I mean, if you want your story to reach broad audiences, story mode is good. If you have an artistic vision and can only see your story learned as such, do that. Not supplying story mode is like not supplying condiments at a restaurant. Limiting your client base.
I don’t particularly find the acessibility argument that compelling. Sure, we must make experiences as acessible as possible, but at a certain point the experience gets degraded by it. You can’t make a blind person see a painting, and if you did, it wouldn’t be a painting.
How does the existence of an option you never use degrade your experience?
For it to work well the developer has to change the game’s design to allow for the easier mode to work. If they don’t, it wouldn’t offer a good experience for neither the easy mode nor hard mode players.
The vast majority of games these days handle difficulty levels by simply tweaking the numbers of how much damage you take and deal. They build the game around a “recommended” difficulty and then add hard/easy modes after the fact by tweaking the stats.
Other games simply turn off the ability to die, or something along those lines.
In both of these cases the game is clearly built around the “normal” mode first. I’d be curious to see a clear cut example of that not being the case.
Using this logic, you would have to accept that people that are very good at a given game from the start have a fundamentally different experience to people that are very bad at a given game. And people that are average have another experience again.
So who’s having the “true” experience? Is the good player having a degraded experience because they feel like they’re playing on easy mode? Is the bad player having a degraded experience because they give up half way in? Is the average player having the “intended” experience of each part of the game feeling earned and hard won?
The reality is it’s impossible to give the “intended” experience to everyone regardless. And if the average player experience is the intended experience, having difficulty settings will actually let the other players experience that, not take away from it. If the very good player and the very bad player can fine tune it so their relative experiences are the same as the average player, hard but not impossible, haven’t you actually given the intended experience to more people rather than degrade it?
The point I’m making is that you need not alter the painting. Adding an option to a game does not alter it for those that do not select it.
You’re arguing for letting perfect be the enemy of good. The fact that a blind person can’t perceive the visual aspect of an experience doesn’t mean that they should be excluded entirely.
Hi! I’ve had two strokes, and my hands don’t work as well as they should! Should I be excluded from the hobby, so you don’t have to look at an extra menu option?
What you’ve got here reeks of elitism.
Disability comes for everyone. Sometimes death gets there first. You aren’t unique.
I’m sorry to hear that, and I certainly dread the day I won’t be able to engage with the hobby the same way. But there are a million games that don’t require fast reaction times and precise lightning fast inputs.
Dude, just let everybody play everything. And if you have to glance at “easy” real fast to make sure you’re not pushing “hard (developer intention)” then that’s fine. Hard is still there.
And thanks for the downvote. I don’t know if you’re interpreting a downvote as “doesn’t add to the discussion,” or “this makes me angry” or “you shouldn’t be disabled, you fucked up”, but it just goes to show what’s up. No one else came along in the last 33 minutes.
The point is just that how can a developer create an experience where you have the satisfaction of succeeding against overwhelming odds when you offer the easy mode where you win by pressing one button? I understand that people play games for a myriad of reasons, but one of those IS to put in effort.
Also it was just a mistake, I don’t really care to upvote or downvote people unless it’s something egregious or great. You really shouldn’t care about it, especially since lemmy doesn’t even keep track of it.
You have your satisfaction by selecting hard. You don’t need to deny an easy difficulty to others.
Or are you the sort that would pick easy if you saw it?
Also this whole conversation is dumb because, until you get off your ass and make a game, you have literally no input whatsoever.
I’m gonna go back to my PS2 Silent Hill play through on beginner difficulty, where I can whack guys once instead of five to nine times. It’s the vibes and the environment.
It would be pretty crappy to never give a description of a painting to a blind person though. Like could you imagine if we never described the Mona Lisa to a blind person and they just to guess what it was a picture of.
That’s pretty much like saying to a person to watch a let’s play of the game rather than play, which is fine but not really the point.
That human rights really matter in the coming upheaval. The doomsday glacier is probably insurmountable for civ to overcome and that level of change in sea level within a decade to century and a half is going to change everything. Most of the worlds cities are not viable. From what I have seen, the long estimates are all biased and unreliable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yEj9JVRhjA
On the bright side, speculative long term land investments might yield a large sum of money. Shallow keel ferry and airboat operators stand to make a fortune.
I’m not sure how the impending climatic doomsday is going to make human rights unimportant?
I think the logic is essentially right wingers keep winning elections. Their supporters tend to argue first and foremost it’s a win against “woke” while the money/interests behind it tend to be “let’s burn this planet down and get ALL the oil.” If the Left conceded on say trans issues or whatever, maybe we’d win, whixh would undoubtedly benefit the billions who may die because of climate change issues.
(Unsure if this would work or if it’d just split the left etc myself but I think that’s the logic.)
An analogy a friend made while making this argument was that the Civil War was essential for Black emancipation etc and we can all agree it was a good thing. BUT, especially in those days, if abolitionists had also demanded trans recognition or whatever, maybe fewer states would’ve joined the Union or maybe the movement would’ve never gotten off the ground and there’s a possible future wherein Black people might still be slaves because, even with the best intentions, we didn’t pick our battles.
It’s a utilitarian answer to a Sophie’s choice.
Wow, this should be downvoted more.
conceded on say trans issues or whatever
What if we conceded on your rights or whatever?
Plus the idea that trans rights lost Democrats the election is ridiculous. There were zero trans speakers in the DNC, and Harris did cater to transphobes by saying she will go with state laws.
So the question remains, who else are you willing to throw under the bus because you think that their rights are too edgy?
Go-slowism leads to do-nothingism - Malcolm X
Utilitarian is not what you think it is. Your comment just shows a complete lack of empathy for people living in the same social space as you.
I think people who think that the rights of any group’s rights is “too much” to appease and appeal to a society of oppressors are complicit to the oppression.
Plus the idea that trans rights lost Democrats the election is ridiculous. There were zero trans speakers in the DNC, and Harris did cater to transphobes by saying she will go with state laws.
You think republicans were watching the DNC or are listening to Harris on trans rights?
There is a reason that one of the ads the trump campaign ran most heavily was about trans issues and casting Harris as too liberal on them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3BXYjoAzq0&ab_channel=TheJimHeathChannel (it’s a horrific ad, so uhh, trigger warning but you can see what they’re doing.)
How many conservatives do you know socially and how many of them didn’t say this was a victory against woke?
so the question remains, who else are you willing to throw under the bus because you think that their rights are too edgy?
I mean, I just answered the logic of the question. I’m not sure what the answer is, nor am I confident abandoning part of the Dem coalition works as we’d split the progressive vote which is death in a 2 party system.
BUT. If the Far Right keeps winning elections, which they generally seem to do by killing the Left on culture issues (this keeps playing out across the world) this will doom billions of the poorest on Earth.
I’d ask you a similar question. Forget trans rights, say the abolitionists had included gay rights but back in the 1800s. Unless you have a wild perspective of history, it’s pretty safe to assume they wouldn’t have won nearly as much popular support as they did. So, how much longer would you have allowed slavery in order to be morally right but unable to help either slaves or homosexuals?
Do I wish the world were better? Absolutely! But, we live in the world that is, not the world we wish it was.
Finally, this is exactly what utilitarianism is. Utilitarianism is trying to promote the maximum good for the maximum number of people. The chief criticisms are generally around situations much like this, where the philosophy implies you are willing to inflict unfair suffering on a small number of people to maximize the collective gain of everyone else (technically including the small number.) What do you think Utilitarianism is?
this keeps playing out across the world
Sorry, I won’t cater to the anti-woke majority. They are shaped by decades of well-funded fascist propaganda and complicit media and social media outlets.
This is how “woke” was even introduced in our vocabulary in the first place.
These efforts were never matched in breadth and throughput by those on the anti-anti-woke side. Saying that Democrats should cater more to the anti-woke lynching mob does not cut it. It is the quintessence of the ratchet effect. It only leads to greater success rate of said propaganda efforts.
So to translate your argument, the fascist propaganda apparatus indeed has shaped an anti-woke majority, but leftists should not yield to them under no conditions: it will only normalize bigotry. Plus they already did lower the tones on trans issues. It did not win them the elections. Biden did take on the bigots with pro-trans policies and he had won, on the other hand.
So what leg does your argument even stand on except sharing some of the bigotry? We should push the narrative more and more towards equality, not conceding that absolute equality is utopian. The more you annoy the bigots the better.
The Democrats never addressed the propaganda apparatus that brought us to this. And now we should focus more on organizing rather than retrospectively catering to transphobes and racists to win elections. That is why I think your argument is despicable and comes from a position of privilege. If it was your rights/survival on the line and not someone else’s you wouldn’t be suggesting political trade-offs.
Right enough, you are doing this right now: Because your life is at threat now, you say “shiiit we should have sacrificed the trans pawn to win the political chess after all”. Guess what, this is the dog-eat-dog mentality that fascism instills in people, having its way already.
The answer is solidarity and organizing, not trade-offs.
So, again, I’ll ask a fairly simple question.
Say the abolitionists had included gay rights but back in the 1800s. Unless you have a wild perspective of history, it’s pretty safe to assume they wouldn’t have won nearly as much popular support as they did. So, how much longer would you have allowed slavery in order to be morally right but unable to help either slaves or homosexuals?
Edit: Becaude its not just trans folks at risk, it is the billions of poor people who will die from climate catastrophes. They don’t have our privilege of knowing that even if the climate goes bad, we’ll be basically okay.
We have two vulnerable groups to protect, one is much larger than the other, by orders of magnitude.
I already said no. We have a totally different mind model here. You think that there is a static majority with crystalized opinions, a conservative inertia that we have to adapt to. I believe that the revolutionary powers compete with fascist propaganda to win over the majority, who is bound to different material interests.
When this deceptively mild approach of appeasing the majority used, it legitimizes that the fascists are somehow in the right to a degree.
That is what I cannot stand about centrists. I am an anarchist, there is no middle ground between me and, well, a number of things that are utterly unacceptable. There is no middle ground to nazism, and corporatism, for example. By upholding these standards, I am dragging society towards absolute equality.
With your appeasement approach, you legitimize fascists, which is called the ratchet effect. Without revolutionary powers dragging people leftwards, centrist appeasement pushes the mainstream rightward.
Having said that, the proposed example is completely out of historical context, and is wrong on so many levels. I can’t go into all the details right now, but the very idea of “throwing homosexuals in the mix” is preposterous given the historical context.
Let me direct you to the fact that the British Empire paid reparations to slave owners, but even to this day if you try to mention Reparations to the Caribbean and African nations you will be met with vile harassment from hordes of nazi trolls. So I cannot educate you in Marxist political economy right now, but you comparing abolitionism to gay rights is comparing apples and oranges, and the equivalence is unwarranted.
Only under the concurrent prism of anti-wokeism these are deemed comparable, from the viewpoint of being “not cisgender heteronormative germanic/anglo/saxon Christian male”. So you would not be bringing this even remotely up if you were not ever so slightly affected by anti-woke propaganda yourself.
The non-crackers are a much bigger group than the genocidal crackers so from an utilitarian standpoint we should kill all crackers
Pronouns. I get that they matter a lot to some people, and of course it’s super annoying (if not worse) to be referred to in the wrong way, but I find it unreasonable to demand being referred to something outside of the gender binary, simply because that’s the way language works.
I am aware that English has used “they” for a person of unknown gender for ages, but for one, I don’t think it’s something that you should demand people call you when they actually know your gender, but also I really hate that this is making its way into other languages like my own, that has never had this convention. Inventing entirely new pronouns is just ridiculous, I have a hard enough time to remember your name.
I am also aware that language evolves, but this is not evolution, it’s forced, and if one group of people can try to force a change they prefer, I’m as much in my right to resist it if I don’t like it.
People are super passionate about this though and in fifty years I’m sure I’ll be seen as a fossil for not getting with the times now - in fact I’m sure certain people see me like this now.
I know a few trans or nonbinary folks. They either go by he, she, or they. I have yet to meet someone who doesn’t. Then again I live in a weird progressive rural community.
But if someone asks me to refer to them a particular way, sure what not? It means more to them than it means to me.
But if someone asks me to refer to them a particular way, sure what not? It means more to them than it means to me.
And it costs you nothing. :)
Until you’re that rural person dropped into a convention center with people wearing name tags with their preferred pronoun and almost no understanding of how to actually use those pronouns appropriately.
For the most part, it’s amazing how seldom pronouns actually get used in referring to any specific person. Even if Bob uses he/she/they relatively often, the he/she/they being referred to is a specific person and the number of times Bob uses the word ‘she’ when referring to Sally is related entirely to how often Bob talks about Sally, specifically with other people. That might literally be never/once a year/once in his lifetime/etc.
If the vast majority of the time Bob talks about other people, they’ve not mentioned any preference, it’s understandable if he struggles when the need comes up, mid conversation, to substitute a ‘they/zhe/xer’ where he has only every used he/she (they still sounds plural to most people), and to remember off the top of your head a pronoun you’ve only seen on a name tag one time, roughly amounts to remembering everyone’s name and their hometown. Of course the impact is lessened by the fact that you will rarely have to refer to some specific person in third person when you don’t even remember their name, and in that case ‘they’ is kind of a fallback anyway.
Perhaps an undesirable outcome is that if the pronoun is a hurdle to overcome, it’s easier for Bob just not to bring Sally up at all, a possibly unfortunate result because it might have been an interesting conversation that is now simply avoided.
Okay, first of all, if you counted how many pronouns you use, per day, it would likely surprise you. Second, it once again, costs you nothing to use someone’s pronouns after they’ve been identified to you. If you’re arguing “it’s not fair to be yelled at for something you aren’t aware of” then that’s completely reasonable.
If your argument is “I don’t want to be bothered learning 3 new words in a language I’ve spoken my entire life,” then I have no sympathy for you, and you’re at best just someone who’s disrespectful to those they (WOW I used they as a singular, THAT was hard, cost me $400 to write that just now) don’t feel deserve respect. It’s that simple.
If someone introduces themselves as Jennifer, and you immediately start calling them Jen/Jenny/Etc, and they ask tell you it’s Jennifer, do you double down because, well, Jen is just easier, Jen is just easier, I’ll just stop bringing up Jen.
Perhaps an undesirable outcome is that if the pronoun is a hurdle to overcome, it’s easier for Bob just not to bring Sally up at all, a possibly unfortunate result because it might have been an interesting conversation that is now simply avoided.
And then you sit there, while explaining this to me, and act like what you’re describing isn’t blatant discrimination. The exact same “LoGiC” that has been used to discriminate against “difficult women,” y’know, the ones that were sexually harassed in the workplace for decades.
How did the News react to women standing up against harassment and discrimination in the workplace? Oh, that’s right, they said things like, “Well, now men aren’t going to promote women into managerial positions because they’ll be afraid of being sued! Now men can’t even have conversations with their coworkers without fear of reprimand! Won’t anyone think of how the poor men feel?!”
Notice a pattern? It’s always the oppressed asking too much, because they don’t understand the undo burden of checks notes for this discussion not harassing women and, wow, big ask here, using the names and preferred pronouns of your coworkers.
You’re right, I didn’t think how hard that must be on the average person, completely unreasonable ask on the part of the LGBTQ+ community, next they’ll want equal rights under the law! Disgusting. 🙄
Just a guess here, but are you that desperate to get offended at something that you have to double down on everything you find? Where in my comment did you find an opening for someone politely correcting a preferred name, to turn it into a snarky taking over the person.
I fully understand that it isn’t hard to use gender neutral or specific pronouns, and that they comfortably fits within many sentences, but you seem to be insisting that that there are no circumstances where someone might struggle… Can you really think of no insurance where they sounds at least ambiguous, like when it’s unclear if you are talking about a specific person or a group of people, and then stumbling trying to correct, then wonder if you should correct, maybe that’s offensive… Just because you use a simple example doesn’t justify the snark surrounding how others don’t have to pay to do it.
Just because people in the past (and present) have overreached or minimized groups doesn’t mean no one can have a valid thought in that direction. You may want to dismiss or ignore those that take advantage of the gender topic purely for the attention, or lie about sexual abuse for revenge or money, but that doesn’t make it disappear. Understanding that the bad apples don’t invalidate the group is fair, but you’re using the vocal objections as false flags just as much as the media used the false arguments as reasons to minimize the groups themselves.
Just a guess here, but are you that desperate to get offended at something that you have to double down on everything you find?
No, I’m more disappointed that those on Lemmy, a supposed left-leaning forum, are ok with trying to justify not using preferred pronouns.
And I’m offended because your entire comment reeked of “if you defend your gender pronouns, some hick who can’t be bothered to read the name tag in front if them and gets so easily offended for being politely corrected a few times during a conversation, we deserve the right to discriminate against you.” That’s literally your last paragraph, so maybe go read what you actually wrote and are defending before getting upset about someone calling you out on it, whether or not you’re ready to recognize it internally.
Where in my comment did you find an opening for someone politely correcting a preferred name, to turn it into a snarky taking over the person.
I’ve never once said people can’t make mistakes, but this complete “well it’s difficult and ignorance is always an excuse” that all of you seem to be conveying is ridiculous. And it’s absolutely a taking over of a person: pronouns are part of how a person identifies, akin to their name. Your example used a convention full of people wearing name tags that had their names and their pronouns on them. So, you can’t read? You can’t listen and hope you hear someone use the pronoun in a sentence? You can’t go, “Hm, lemme do a quick Google and see how people use zhe/zher in a sentence.”
Again, that would be like saying, “I can’t pronounce Rajesh, even though you’ve politely corrected me several times, but this time you got upset so now I’m either calling you Steve or potentially just never bringing you up again.” That was your entire comment, “This is too difficult for some people, so they don’t have to ever learn.”
Nor have I ever said that trans folks are justified in overreactions to people making genuine mistakes, but the attitude in this thread seems to be “it’s ok to not take them seriously or dismiss them,” which isn’t ok.
We can argue the minutiae of very specific situations where it is or isn’t justified, but overall, I don’t see a situation where there should be confusion around “they.” If you’re having a conversation with or about someone, you likely understand the context around the conversation and should, without much difficulty, be able to follow and understand who “they” is referring to in regards to being a singular or plural pronoun. Especially if you’re at a convention, assuming business/professional since you mentioned name tags, you should be smart enough to figure it out quick enough.
If you’re reading and can’t understand “they,” you’ve either missed context or the author has failed to adequately define who “they” is in that instance. In 2024, I imagine you can look it up for a book, or maybe ask the person in the conversation to clarify if you’re not sure. It’s not hard, it’s laziness on the part of those who “just can’t get with the times.”
You may want to dismiss or ignore those that take advantage of the gender topic purely for the attention, or lie about sexual abuse for revenge or money, but that doesn’t make it disappear.
Doesn’t make what disappear? Can you show me actual, statistical evidence to back up how many people are lying and just seeking attention? This reeks of conservative victim blaming and dismissal of actual victims.
Does it happen? Sure, but I highly highly doubt it happens in any meaningful amount for your statement here to bear any wait beyond, again, victim blaming.
but you’re using the vocal objections as false flags just as much as the media used the false arguments as reasons to minimize the groups themselves.
I have no idea what you’re trying to convey here beyond something akin to “well, not all men.” I’m not accusing every person of being transphobic that struggles to adapt to new pronouns, but they’re also words, you can learn them quickly, especially in your native language. And being offended if someone continues to correct you is more of a reflection on you, the individual who can’t or won’t adapt, to understand that “this is too complicated” isn’t a valid excuse after a certain point.
And my entire thing, this whole comment chain, has been about how using proper pronouns is showing respect for someone, and y’all are making any excuse you can possibly think of to try and find situations where disrespect is justified due to your own failings or inability to grow.
Trans people have enough to deal with, is asking other people to use breath expelled from their lungs to show them respect, even with grace periods for adapting, really asking for the fucking moon here? Like, seriously, all of the controversy around trans people, and pronouns is the hill y’all want to die on? Seriously?
And as I pointed out in my original comment, you’re allowed to not use new pronouns or respect them or whatever, but you’re not allowed to be upset when society treats you in kind.
So I’m not going to address this whole list of responses to comments you twisted around in order to be offended. I’m not dying on a hill of refusing to treat trans people with respect, my entire comment was aimed at cautioning against getting bent out of shape when people struggle a little bit with a new (to them) bit of culture and language.
Yes, we all understand that it’s not ‘hard’, but no matter how much you want everyone to see it your way, treat it with as much importance as you do, to some it’s going to take a bit and if you take that as an attack and attack back, you’re doing more harm than good.
My takeaway from the entire conversation is that if someone refuses to make a good faith effort at using a preferred pronoun, they’re a dick. If someone understands the importance and makes a moderate good faith effort but struggles getting it right and you judge or mock them for it, you’re the dick. And that second audience is bigger than you give credit for.
Using someone’s preferred pronouns is a sign of mutual respect, your refusal to do so is a sign of disrespect to those around you. It’s really that simple, bud.
Do you call people Johnny when they tell you their name is John? It’s literally the same thing, they’ve explained how they’d like to be addressed, and deviating from that uninvited is just rude.
I get that they matter a lot to some people, and of course it’s super annoying (if not worse) to be referred to in the wrong way
It’s dehumanizing and disrespectful, it’s not annoying. I’ve had family members refuse to use an individual’s pronouns, but in a heartbeat correct themselves for referring to a pet by the wrong pronoun. I’ve had people go out of their way to call me “man, guy, dude, bruh” when I’m fem presenting, and I’m the only woman they’re speaking to that way while I get the “I talk like that with everyone, bruh,” excuse.
and if one group of people can try to force a change they prefer, I’m as much in my right to resist it if I don’t like it.
Correct, but then you don’t get to complain, like you are, that people get upset with you about it. You’re not free from the consequences of those around you simply because you have the right to feel differently on something like basic human respect for your fellow people.
I don’t get to complain that no one wants to have dinner with me just because they don’t like me taking food off their plates, even though I don’t agree with that societal norm.
There’s a guy on here with great opinions and I like to hear him talk, but he refers to himself in the third person all the time and it makes it hard for me to take him seriously. It can be a real drag on the conversation to suddenly be conscious of the pronoun of an individual, when you just want to speak to them like an equal.
We’re still in the growing pains version of it, though, where there are far too many people taking advantage of a legitimate position just for the attention. This isn’t unique to the gender conversation, but it definitely suffers from it.
Another issue is that there is a component of needing to be vocal and firm or no one will take you seriously, but it’s a fine line between that and being obnoxious and over-asking…reminding someone who wants to be considerate is good, being offended at someone intentionally mis-labeling may be necessary, but being offended by honest mistakes or berating someone for not realizing zhe or zher or some newly defined label was a thing definitely hurts the cause.
We’re still in the growing pains version of it, though, where there are far too many people taking advantage of a legitimate position just for the attention.
I would argue “who cares?” And please, explain to me how many “far too many” is? Because the trans population makes up under 1% of the US population, so I’m really trying to wrap my head around <1% is “far too many” of anything.
This is just excuses, I’m sorry. I get “zhe/zher/zhers” is awkward to see, but watch this: “Debra is amazing, have you had zher apple pie?”
Phew, nearly suffered an aneurysm on that one. 🙄
Another issue is that there is a component of needing to be vocal and firm or no one will take you seriously, but it’s a fine line between that and being obnoxious and over-asking…reminding someone who wants to be considerate is good, being offended at someone intentionally mis-labeling may be necessary, but being offended by honest mistakes or berating someone for not realizing zhe or zher or some newly defined label was a thing definitely hurts the cause.
First, your last line is bullshit, it’s the same logic that’s been used for every single oppressed group asking for basic respect from their oppressors.
When women standing up against sexual harassment really started to gain national attention, the news anchors made the exact same arguments you’re making now. “Oh, it’s just a man being friendly! Now men won’t want to hire women because they’ll be sued! We’ve behaved this way for decades and now it’s a problem? God, Debbie is such a cunt for reporting me for rubbing her shoulders, I was just trying to be nice!”
When women reported it, it was often, “They’re just looking for a payout/attention! Why didn’t they bring this up for the last X amount of time?! Why do women have to be so rude about it?!”
When gay marriage was being fought for, what did we hear? “Oh, can’t they keep that behind closed doors? It just makes me uncomfortable, I don’t think the children should see that! It’s always been Adam and Eve for me, I’m 40 years old, how am I supposed to learn to use the word “partner” instead of “husband/wife”?!”
Notice how it’s always the oppressed who are asking for too much, always? Always, it’s always the oppressed asking for too much. But when they say, “Hey, society, can you do XYZ to show me some basic dignity and respect?” what are we met with?
“We’re still in the growing pains, people are taking advantage, we need to be patient, you need to know your place and when it’s ok to speak up, but make sure you know the correct amount to speak up, otherwise they have the right to just not respect you.”
For fucking words, that’s what y’all are doubling down on, something that costs you no money or effort beyond treating someone like a person, and respecting their reasonable request. They’re not asking for you to paint their face from memory, or have their star-chart memorized and they yell at you for not knowing that Mercury was in retrograde, or chastising you for not knowing the exact date and time they were born.
If they’ve introduced themselves and their pronouns, and you can’t be bothered to respect that, you’re just a dick at best and transphobic at worst. It’s really that simple, it’s a sign of respect, and any excuse for why you can’t use words is just an excuse to disrespect those you don’t feel deserve it. And that’s an internal issue the individual needs to get over, but the LGBTQ+ community doesn’t need to coddle a society that can’t be bothered to show them the respect of using proper pronouns.
You seem to be primed to take everything as bad faith almost intentionally. Not understanding that arguments have two sides is what keeps conversations from happening, not what settled them. Yes, it is not a huge burden to remember someone’s pronoun, but people have a lot on their mind and something that has been one way for the majority of most people’s lives is absolutely going to take some time ‘not to get wrong’ even for people who are honestly trying, yet you act as though it’s rude not to suddenly find it natural. If i told you I’d find it rude not to remember everyone’s favorite color, would you jump to making an effort to learn everyone’s favorite color? Now, was your first instinct when reading that example an indignant response that it was insensitive because ‘favorite color’ isn’t as identifying as a person’s gender?
I understand that many people discount a person’s gender or sexual preference, or even sexual abuse in order to minimize it, use examples of people taking advantage of it, or lying about it in order to dismiss the larger group of people who have real claims and preferences and experiences… But those things come from a real place too, and trying to bully or shame people for it is the same thing you accuse others of.
Honestly this conversation has gotten far too broad to even address all the differences of opinion we have, but if there’s one thing we might be able to agree on is that people don’t like being minimized, whether it’s about their gender, or if it’s their struggle with understanding sometimes struggle with gender. If you insist on insisting that the only valid argument is that everyone takes it as seriously as you do, you’re accomplishing a net negative for the cause.
Yes, it is not a huge burden to remember someone’s pronoun,
Then stop arguing otherwise. Stop making excuses. We get it, no one is going to get it the first time, no one is going to remember everything.
By your logic, fascists deserve a seat at the table because otherwise we can’t have a discussion about fascism. Racists deserve a seat at the table because otherwise we can’t see their point of view. White supremacists need a seat at the table because otherwise we’d only hear from those they hate.
But those things come from a real place too, and trying to bully or shame people for it is the same thing you accuse others of.
So you’re just, again, victim blaming and refusing to show any examples of this supposed attention seeking. You got anything beyond a handful of cases over the decades?
You’re right, the amount of respect a person receives should be based on the gender pronouns they use and the overwhelming inconvenience they apparently place on the general population. Yep, respect for a human being should be a debate.
When are you going to blame trans people for Harris losing like the rest of the liberal base seems ready to? I mean, we have to engage with that point of you, right, we have to tolerate the intolerant, right?
Right.
That’s where you lose the argument entirely. We don’t have to tolerate the intolerant… Nothing i said suggests that outside of your insistence on being offended. You don’t tolerate the worst examples of the other side, but you at least take a breath to try to understand the well intentioned members who don’t see things your way.
Except for the most extreme cases you can come up with, nothing is black and white, everything is grey, and your insistence that i must be a bad guy because i challenge anything makes you not terribly worth engaging.
Except for those baiting the conversation, everyone has reasons for feeling how they do on a topic, even if it’s just defaulting to it because of their social circle, but you are not a good champion of the cause of all you can come up with is mocking straw men arguments and feigning indignance.
Except for the most extreme cases you can come up with, nothing is black and white, everything is grey, and your insistence that i must be a bad guy because i challenge anything makes you not terribly worth engaging.
I’m still waiting for evidence of all of these numerous cases of people using pronouns for attention, and all these people making up sexual assault claims. You got any?
Since I’ve clearly lost the argument entirely (sure, bud, sure), you clearly must have a plethora of evidence and examples that actually support your claim.
This entire comment is attacking me, and nothing that I actually said, while using generalizations to paint this picture that I don’t understand unless I can use extremely specific examples.
What part of “This entire debate is a debate about respect” do you not understand, and what argument is there to be had about that? I’d love to hear it, I’d love for you to actually engage with anything I’ve said beyond “yOu HaVe To UnDeRsTaNd ThEiR pOiNt Of ViEw.”
I already covered the grey areas, if you actually what I wrote, you’re just being willfully ignorant about it. “No one should be yelled at for a genuine mistake, but eventually it’s not a mistake and you need to grow.” Wow, yeah, whole lot of grey area in that one too, PHEW, we’re demanding the world.
but you are not a good champion of the cause of all you can come up with is mocking straw men arguments and feigning indignance.
I asked you for statistical evidence to back up your claims and you’ve provided none, so I’ve had to argue your own ridiculous arguments that fell apart under the most basic scrutiny. Sorry you have a terrible take on this? That’s my fault too, that’s me mocking straw men arguments (so you’re admitting that your arguments are all bad faith, straw men arguments, glad to hear it) and feigning indignance?
I’m not feigning anything, once again, using preferred pronouns is basic respect to another human being, and while no one should be offended by genuine mistakes, your continued defense of not showing trans people respect if their pronouns aren’t up to your standard, is transphobic.
So, I apologize if someone who refuses to provide any evidence to back up their claims that there are so very many instances of people making up pronouns, or any instance of how someone requesting certain pronouns creates such an undo burden on the rest of society, isn’t worth me engaging with further.
Keep making excuses for why you have it so much worse than the marginalized group who’s request for respect is apparently a fucking debate.
Absolute clown.
Yeah I support trans rights. If you are consistent I’ll use your preferred pronouns. I don’t care what bathroom people use. Health care is between you and your doctor. I only care about what genitals you have if we are going to be doing things with each others genitals.
That said so many trans people are complete assholes about it. I’m on your side but fuck so many of you are annoying jerks.
I remember when gays started coming out of the closet and they handled it better. Polite but firm about being treated fairly. The trans community is making more foes then friends the way they are acting.
This might be specific to your region? Most trans people I know are grateful if you even make an effort. Even if you get it wrong sometimes.
It’s probably mostly a very vocal online minority. The few trans people I’ve come across irl (there aren’t many trans people) have typically been regular people.
Could be. Grateful and understanding does describe my two trans friends. However they we friends before they transitioned. So the relationship was established and they knew I cared about them.
I knew one for ten years before they transitioned. So yeah I try not to dead name them but it takes time to adjust. For me it took about 2 years before I didn’t think of their old name and have to adjust it before speaking.
I was talking about them with a mutual friend at a party. Someone I don’t know yells at me from across the room “we don’t use that name here.” I’m better friends with them then you and you just made the entire party aware of their status.
Maybe it’s just the people who make it a big deal publicly and like to challenge people. They tend to be the most noticeable in the community.
Yeah, I’m trans and there’s a push and pull there. I spent a long time trying to get people to understand and speak up for me so I don’t have to be the one to correct when I’ve been misgendered, but I remember being young and confrontational once and I got into fights over it and probably made trans people look like psychos at the time. And I was definitely worse to be around when I was doing more activism and community support.
I’ve long since accepted that gentle nudges and honest connections are the key to mass acceptance, but that at times we will have to make showy displays of our struggle for equal rights. And that doesn’t mean I don’t get to be angry or frustrated when I’m being hurt, it just means I need to accept that people trying are trying and that my role as someone who’s increasingly an elder in my community is partly to encourage people to know when to yell and when to gently correct
The entire second half of your comment is both prejudiced and incorrect. You are generalizing an entire marginalized group by the actions of a few people you have interacted with. I have many trans friends irl, interact in communities with people across the gender spectrum online, and am engaged to a trans woman. I have never experienced someone being rude when they weren’t treated rudely first. Additionally, trans people and “gays” are different categories entirely. You do not sound like the ally you claim to be.
