Censorship in the West: we don’t want that on our platform, person goes and finds a different platform.
Censorship under authoritarian governments: Criticize government? Straight to jail. Uncover wrongdoing by party official? Jail. Political opposition becoming more than controlled opposition? Believe it or not, jail.
Censorship in the West for minor criticisms isn’t overtly blocking in the information. Instead it is drowned out with the government’s narrative on all major platforms of discourse
Ooh! Is this that Whataboutism thing that liberals keep accusing socialists of!
Actually no, this goes beyond just that when the US/UK/EU claim to be THE global bastions of free speech and the vanguards and protectors of free speech for the entire world. When they still pull this shit, you really have to start thinking if they have ulterior motives when they accuse China, Russia, or Belarus of human rights violations for not having free speech and whether this whole free speech thing is part of an agenda.
This isn’t just pot calling the kettle black, this is pot, who also claims to be the inventor and defenser of white, calling the kettle black.
Please point where people are claiming that Russia or Belarus are beacons of democracy. The discussion is about the hypocrisy of western countries that claim to have more freedoms while doing same things as the states they decry as being authoritarian.
They literally are. Go look at what RCMP does to the Indigenous people protecting their land in Canada as an example. When Canada wants to run a pipeline through indigenous land, that hasn’t been ceded I might add, they’ll brutalize and arrest as many people as they want. The fact that you believe there is nothing like this happening in North America is pathetic.
Abuse of Indigenous people is political violence on top of the genocide Canadian settlers committed.
But this is not the same thing. This is people demonstrating by physically disrupting projects. We can agree or disagree about the validity of their movement, like I myself don’t want us to build more pipelines, but clearly there’s a difference. These people using more than just speech and persuasion to try and achieve their political ends, they are directly trying to intervene physically. Nobody in Canada is being arrested or even stopped from expressing their political outlook, talking to media, or trying to persuade people to join their cause. In fact, levels of government often actually help in these expressions by for instance allowing a protest/march to partially shut down streets for the duration of a demonstrations in major cities like Vancouver and Toronto. Major parties run and even win representation, running on anti-pipeline platforms.
But that freedom of speech and freedom of opinion and of the press does not extend to the point of taking matters into ones own hands. And if you tried to pull off something like this in Russia by physically blocking the construction of a natural gas pipeline I have a feeling that the police would be a lot less tolerant than the RCMP.
It’s just a plain true fact that in Canada we have orders of magnitude more political freedom than in Belarus and Russia.
Nope, sorry. Dead wrong, hyperbolic statement. Nobody in Canada is being arrested for holding up a piece of paper on the street with a political message, regardless of their ethnicity. Yes, indigenous people are treated unfairly by the police, in some cases even murdered by the police. But this is a completely different topic than that of political freedom.
Regarding the starlight tours, this is utterly unrelated to the freedom of speech issue. Yes, police have abused indigenous people in the past and in some cases are still doing so in the present but we acknowledge this as a society all the way to the top offices of the country. We have a judicial system which is attempts to correct this and even compensate for biases such as the Gladue Report etc.
By any reasonable definition, Canada is much more politically free than Russia/Belarus. A reasonable bar to say that Canada enjoys political freedom is not “no injustice ever occurs on in Canada” or “police never abuse anyone in Canada” or “the state has never violated freedom of speech/expression even once”. If we are going to have the bar that high, then literally no society ever in history, or probably in the future, can adhere to this definition of freedom of speech so the phrase becomes useless and your criticism of Canadian society becomes meaningless because no society in the real universe can ever live up to your ideal.
A more reasonable definition would be something like “almost everyone, almost all the time, enjoys basically unlimited ability to express their political opinions without being subjected to persecution from the state” and we undoubtedly have that in Canada, and more so than in just about any other country. No police officer is going to do anything to any indigenous person for just holding up a protest sign in downtown Vancouver or Winnipeg or Toronto.
This is not at all true in Russia. People are arrested for as little as holding up a blank piece of paper, let alone an actually dissenting opinion!
There’s a difference between socially unacceptable and “straight to jail”.
You mean like Assange and Manning?
Manning not only released documents that were under her care as an intelligence officer, but also broke into other systems. Regardless of whether you support what she did, she did so knowing the consequences of breaking her oath. In doing so, she made public wrongdoing, but also exposed sources that the US had promised would be kept safe.
Assange… well, that feels more like a case of karma. The Obama/Biden administration declined to indict him in relation to the Manning leaks. He then screwed with the 2016 US elections, blatantly stoking conspiracy theories, laundering Russia’s hacks in service of Trump, and coordinating with the Trump campaign to time releases to blunt at least one scandal. In return, the Trump administration indicted him. I don’t fully understand the case, so I won’t comment on it.
Compare that to investigative journalism in general in the US. Journalists can publish pieces that are extremely critical of both the government and corporations. High up people regularly are dragged down from their perch by an enterprising reporter. Maybe newsrooms aren’t as well staffed as they used to be, but it’s not in the same league as countries like China, Russia, and Venezuela that lack anything resembling a free press.
There’s a difference between socially unacceptable and “straight to jail”.
So just a straw man then?
Compare that to investigative journalism in general in the US. Journalists can publish pieces that are extremely critical of both the government and corporations.
Journalists can’t question systemic problems in US. Entire books have been written on how journalism in US has been subverted. Read Inventing Reality and Manufacturing consent which both provide numerous case studies.
The fact that you genuinely believe that quality of journalism in China, Russia, or Venezuela is significantly worse than in the west is illustration of the effectiveness of propaganda in western media.
Assange did real journalism and he is being tortured for it right now. Instead of being outraged by the war crimes he exposed you choose to smear the man.
Also, I highly recommend that you read in this book detailing political repression in US. A few excerpts:
My view is that I have no idea what CCP is, but CPC doesn’t seem to be doing anything exceptional with regards to historical revisionism. Perhaps you can try to articulate the point you’re trying to make in more concrete terms.
Within China, censorship in recent weeks increased as the country prepared for the 30th anniversary of the Tiananmen Square uprisings, a series of student protests that were violently suppressed by the army, leading to more than 10,000 civilian deaths, according to some estimates.
Prior to the anniversary, on June 4, Chinese internet users reported widespread censorship on social media websites. On popular messaging services such as Weibo and a streaming service run by the company YY Inc., users were prevented from entering search terms such as “Tiananmen incident,” “candlelight vigil,” “repression,” and “student movement.”
I don’t have anything against Venezuela per se. Maduro is a shitty leader who maintains his grip on power by giving oil money to the armed forces. He’s nothing but a military-backed dictator that is so shitty that he and Hugo Chavez provoked a massive migration crisis with 15% of the country leaving. Part of the way he maintains his grip besides bribing the armed forces is extermination of any free press.
Yeah no. For anyone just randomly complaining about the government, in order of frequency of “enforcement” used, frequency decreases exponentially: 1. No one cares and their post stays up forever; 2. The individual post gets removed or prevented from being posted; 3. Their account on that platform gets banned. The platforms in China like WeChat, the Chinese version of TikTok, etc are still private platforms by private companies btw.
It’s only when you go beyond just criticizing the government and into advocating for violence, civil disorder, and coup when you actually get into law enforcement response and potential jail time. Which, by the way, is absolutely also true for Western countries, go ahead and point to a single Western “free speech” country that doesn’t outlaw those in their legislation, I’ll wait. By the way, despite popular Western belief, there are no “illegal speech” crimes that are punishable by death in China. They have these nifty things called “maximum punishments allowed by statute” just like the West, and death is only on the table for the most serious crimes like murder, rape, etc, just like the West.
You can call for the overthrow of the US government. People do it all the time without consequence. More specific threats against particular targets might get a visit from the Secret Service.
It’s easy to find counterexamples of China having a go at journalists. For example, a journalist was sentenced to four years in prison for “picking quarrels and provoking trouble”, the CPC’s blanket crime for those who displease it. She had been doing unflattering reporting on the CPC’s handling of COVID-19.
death is only on the table for the most serious crimes like murder, rape, etc, just like the West.
Most of the West has abolished the death penalty. The US is an outlier here, and even in the US it is only for murder and many states have abolished it completely.
In the US the death sentence is given out for such innocuous crimes as being Black while walking and living in Indigenous communities so I dunno what you mean.
Anyway, as far as “official death sentences” the US did it 11 times in 2021 and China did it 6, so you’re still wrong in thinking China does it more than the US.
The US has executed 365 juvenile offenders, and only raised the minimum age of execution to 18 in 2005
55% of Americans still support the death penalty.
And again, the extrajudicial executions carried out by US police is exceptionally astounding.
Edit: “Whoever knowingly or willfully advocates, abets, advises, or teaches the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the government of the United States or the government of any State, Territory, District or Possession thereof, or the government of any political subdivision therein…Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both”
So nope, you can’t call for the overthrow of the US government.
In the US the death sentence is given out for such innocuous crimes as being Black while walking and living in Indigenous communities so I dunno what you mean.
Bullshit. Complete bullshit.
China did it 6
The number of people China subjects to the death penalty is considered a state secret. It includes not just murder but also drug trafficking. Estimates usually range in the thousands, with China estimated to execute more than every other state combined.
The US has executed 365 juvenile offenders, and only raised the minimum age of execution to 18 in 2005
So we’re doing better than China, which still executes juveniles? Cool.
And again, the extrajudicial executions carried out by US police is exceptionally astounding.
This is a valid complaint, but it’s a debate we are fully free to have. BLM has been a strong movement with support from a wide variety of racial groups.
So nope, you can’t call for the overthrow of the US government.
That law, the Smith Act, hasn’t been used in decades. Many of the convictions under it were overturned, with one prosecutor expressing regret for even bringing an indictment.
Bullshit? Are you fucking kidding me? You seriously so oblivious to the state of things in the US that you don’t see the countless cases of cops killing kids and Indigenous people being fucking genocided?
China does not execute juveniles, the minimum age is 18 there as well. Pretty cool that you don’t need any fucking sources, you can just say “it’s a state secret” while spouting entirely unfounded nonsense about juvenile executions.
Literal laws on America’s books don’t count because “they’re not applied” but when it comes to China their laws don’t matter because you have unfounded claims of juvenile executions?
What despicable American exceptionalism, you should be utterly ashamed of yourself.
Edit: nevermind, just blocked that person. Not wasting time engaging with someone that obtuse. Honestly, if I didn’t know how dogmatically brain-wormed USians are I would have to assume they were being paid to spout this much garbage.
I believe they are just a baiter at this point, since 3 years. They do it on every other post, either as being Anglo white knight or a paid troll. CIA has enough pennies to print and throw around.
Censorship in the West: we don’t want that on our platform, person goes and finds a different platform.
Censorship under authoritarian governments: Criticize government? Straight to jail. Uncover wrongdoing by party official? Jail. Political opposition becoming more than controlled opposition? Believe it or not, jail.
Censorship in the West for minor criticisms isn’t overtly blocking in the information. Instead it is drowned out with the government’s narrative on all major platforms of discourse
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window
You mean like Assange and Manning?
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Ooh! Is this that Whataboutism thing that liberals keep accusing socialists of!
Actually no, this goes beyond just that when the US/UK/EU claim to be THE global bastions of free speech and the vanguards and protectors of free speech for the entire world. When they still pull this shit, you really have to start thinking if they have ulterior motives when they accuse China, Russia, or Belarus of human rights violations for not having free speech and whether this whole free speech thing is part of an agenda.
This isn’t just pot calling the kettle black, this is pot, who also claims to be the inventor and defenser of white, calling the kettle black.
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That is whataboutism, please sit down.
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now you want to pretend to have nuance?
Please point where people are claiming that Russia or Belarus are beacons of democracy. The discussion is about the hypocrisy of western countries that claim to have more freedoms while doing same things as the states they decry as being authoritarian.
Sorry, but people in the states and Canada just aren’t being jailed for their political opinions. There’s nothing even remotely like https://youtu.be/TbzV1it1YPY or https://twitter.com/nikorepi/status/1503096676575236098 happening in North America…
They literally are. Go look at what RCMP does to the Indigenous people protecting their land in Canada as an example. When Canada wants to run a pipeline through indigenous land, that hasn’t been ceded I might add, they’ll brutalize and arrest as many people as they want. The fact that you believe there is nothing like this happening in North America is pathetic.
Abuse of Indigenous people is political violence on top of the genocide Canadian settlers committed.
Lots of white privilege on display here.
But this is not the same thing. This is people demonstrating by physically disrupting projects. We can agree or disagree about the validity of their movement, like I myself don’t want us to build more pipelines, but clearly there’s a difference. These people using more than just speech and persuasion to try and achieve their political ends, they are directly trying to intervene physically. Nobody in Canada is being arrested or even stopped from expressing their political outlook, talking to media, or trying to persuade people to join their cause. In fact, levels of government often actually help in these expressions by for instance allowing a protest/march to partially shut down streets for the duration of a demonstrations in major cities like Vancouver and Toronto. Major parties run and even win representation, running on anti-pipeline platforms.
But that freedom of speech and freedom of opinion and of the press does not extend to the point of taking matters into ones own hands. And if you tried to pull off something like this in Russia by physically blocking the construction of a natural gas pipeline I have a feeling that the police would be a lot less tolerant than the RCMP.
It’s just a plain true fact that in Canada we have orders of magnitude more political freedom than in Belarus and Russia.
Illegal projects on unceded land. However, as links I provided show, this is not limited to pipelines being rammed through Indigenous land.
As long as you have blue eye and blond hair.
Nope, sorry. Dead wrong, hyperbolic statement. Nobody in Canada is being arrested for holding up a piece of paper on the street with a political message, regardless of their ethnicity. Yes, indigenous people are treated unfairly by the police, in some cases even murdered by the police. But this is a completely different topic than that of political freedom.
Regarding the starlight tours, this is utterly unrelated to the freedom of speech issue. Yes, police have abused indigenous people in the past and in some cases are still doing so in the present but we acknowledge this as a society all the way to the top offices of the country. We have a judicial system which is attempts to correct this and even compensate for biases such as the Gladue Report etc.
By any reasonable definition, Canada is much more politically free than Russia/Belarus. A reasonable bar to say that Canada enjoys political freedom is not “no injustice ever occurs on in Canada” or “police never abuse anyone in Canada” or “the state has never violated freedom of speech/expression even once”. If we are going to have the bar that high, then literally no society ever in history, or probably in the future, can adhere to this definition of freedom of speech so the phrase becomes useless and your criticism of Canadian society becomes meaningless because no society in the real universe can ever live up to your ideal.
A more reasonable definition would be something like “almost everyone, almost all the time, enjoys basically unlimited ability to express their political opinions without being subjected to persecution from the state” and we undoubtedly have that in Canada, and more so than in just about any other country. No police officer is going to do anything to any indigenous person for just holding up a protest sign in downtown Vancouver or Winnipeg or Toronto.
This is not at all true in Russia. People are arrested for as little as holding up a blank piece of paper, let alone an actually dissenting opinion!
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I encourage you to read chapter 10 in this book that invalidates your narrative.
Hahah I knew it would be a parenti book :D
Parenti did some heroic work documenting the sins of the empire.
I did not realize this database existed, so a sincere thank you for providing a link.
Book time!
finally, one down
There’s a difference between socially unacceptable and “straight to jail”.
Manning not only released documents that were under her care as an intelligence officer, but also broke into other systems. Regardless of whether you support what she did, she did so knowing the consequences of breaking her oath. In doing so, she made public wrongdoing, but also exposed sources that the US had promised would be kept safe.
Assange… well, that feels more like a case of karma. The Obama/Biden administration declined to indict him in relation to the Manning leaks. He then screwed with the 2016 US elections, blatantly stoking conspiracy theories, laundering Russia’s hacks in service of Trump, and coordinating with the Trump campaign to time releases to blunt at least one scandal. In return, the Trump administration indicted him. I don’t fully understand the case, so I won’t comment on it.
Compare that to investigative journalism in general in the US. Journalists can publish pieces that are extremely critical of both the government and corporations. High up people regularly are dragged down from their perch by an enterprising reporter. Maybe newsrooms aren’t as well staffed as they used to be, but it’s not in the same league as countries like China, Russia, and Venezuela that lack anything resembling a free press.
So just a straw man then?
Journalists can’t question systemic problems in US. Entire books have been written on how journalism in US has been subverted. Read Inventing Reality and Manufacturing consent which both provide numerous case studies.
The fact that you genuinely believe that quality of journalism in China, Russia, or Venezuela is significantly worse than in the west is illustration of the effectiveness of propaganda in western media.
Assange did real journalism and he is being tortured for it right now. Instead of being outraged by the war crimes he exposed you choose to smear the man.
Also, I highly recommend that you read in this book detailing political repression in US. A few excerpts:
What do you think about https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_nihilism
(I did not read the whole context but it is impossible to ignore this)
Doesn’t that describe exactly what western countries do? For example https://theconversation.com/school-curriculum-continues-to-whitewash-britains-imperial-past-53577
That was not what I asked. What is your view on China/CCP on historical nihilism in specific?
We can all agree about the factual bad things west does.
My view is that I have no idea what CCP is, but CPC doesn’t seem to be doing anything exceptional with regards to historical revisionism. Perhaps you can try to articulate the point you’re trying to make in more concrete terms.
I see. For a concrete example, does China/CPC censors or not Tiananmen Square events? Some context https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests_and_massacre#Censorship_in_China
DJ Chelsea Manning is also now a NATO shill.
What do you have against Venezuela?
are these they?
I don’t have anything against Venezuela per se. Maduro is a shitty leader who maintains his grip on power by giving oil money to the armed forces. He’s nothing but a military-backed dictator that is so shitty that he and Hugo Chavez provoked a massive migration crisis with 15% of the country leaving. Part of the way he maintains his grip besides bribing the armed forces is extermination of any free press.
Censorship under authoritarian governments:
https://lemmy.ml/post/552234
https://lemmy.ml/post/473162
https://lemmy.ml/post/87081
https://lemmy.ml/post/472853
https://lemmy.ml/post/367783
Just a small cross section
Person goes to any platform, and all platforms belong to USA/FVEY. You forgot to point out the second half. Why? Is it intentional dishonesty?
I’m assuming you’re talking about China in this.
Yeah no. For anyone just randomly complaining about the government, in order of frequency of “enforcement” used, frequency decreases exponentially: 1. No one cares and their post stays up forever; 2. The individual post gets removed or prevented from being posted; 3. Their account on that platform gets banned. The platforms in China like WeChat, the Chinese version of TikTok, etc are still private platforms by private companies btw.
Oh look! Some actual legislation on the subject! https://lemmy.ml/post/69688/comment/60571
It’s only when you go beyond just criticizing the government and into advocating for violence, civil disorder, and coup when you actually get into law enforcement response and potential jail time. Which, by the way, is absolutely also true for Western countries, go ahead and point to a single Western “free speech” country that doesn’t outlaw those in their legislation, I’ll wait. By the way, despite popular Western belief, there are no “illegal speech” crimes that are punishable by death in China. They have these nifty things called “maximum punishments allowed by statute” just like the West, and death is only on the table for the most serious crimes like murder, rape, etc, just like the West.
Massive economic crimes is also in, unlike the west.
Massive economic crime is a serious crime.
In the west it just goes in the portfolio.
Liberals celebrate their capitalist overlords. I find it disgusting.
You can call for the overthrow of the US government. People do it all the time without consequence. More specific threats against particular targets might get a visit from the Secret Service.
It’s easy to find counterexamples of China having a go at journalists. For example, a journalist was sentenced to four years in prison for “picking quarrels and provoking trouble”, the CPC’s blanket crime for those who displease it. She had been doing unflattering reporting on the CPC’s handling of COVID-19.
Most of the West has abolished the death penalty. The US is an outlier here, and even in the US it is only for murder and many states have abolished it completely.
In the US the death sentence is given out for such innocuous crimes as being Black while walking and living in Indigenous communities so I dunno what you mean.
Anyway, as far as “official death sentences” the US did it 11 times in 2021 and China did it 6, so you’re still wrong in thinking China does it more than the US.
The US has executed 365 juvenile offenders, and only raised the minimum age of execution to 18 in 2005
55% of Americans still support the death penalty.
And again, the extrajudicial executions carried out by US police is exceptionally astounding.
Edit: “Whoever knowingly or willfully advocates, abets, advises, or teaches the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the government of the United States or the government of any State, Territory, District or Possession thereof, or the government of any political subdivision therein…Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both”
So nope, you can’t call for the overthrow of the US government.
Bullshit. Complete bullshit.
The number of people China subjects to the death penalty is considered a state secret. It includes not just murder but also drug trafficking. Estimates usually range in the thousands, with China estimated to execute more than every other state combined.
So we’re doing better than China, which still executes juveniles? Cool.
This is a valid complaint, but it’s a debate we are fully free to have. BLM has been a strong movement with support from a wide variety of racial groups.
That law, the Smith Act, hasn’t been used in decades. Many of the convictions under it were overturned, with one prosecutor expressing regret for even bringing an indictment.
Bullshit? Are you fucking kidding me? You seriously so oblivious to the state of things in the US that you don’t see the countless cases of cops killing kids and Indigenous people being fucking genocided?
China does not execute juveniles, the minimum age is 18 there as well. Pretty cool that you don’t need any fucking sources, you can just say “it’s a state secret” while spouting entirely unfounded nonsense about juvenile executions.
Literal laws on America’s books don’t count because “they’re not applied” but when it comes to China their laws don’t matter because you have unfounded claims of juvenile executions?
What despicable American exceptionalism, you should be utterly ashamed of yourself.
Edit: nevermind, just blocked that person. Not wasting time engaging with someone that obtuse. Honestly, if I didn’t know how dogmatically brain-wormed USians are I would have to assume they were being paid to spout this much garbage.
I believe they are just a baiter at this point, since 3 years. They do it on every other post, either as being Anglo white knight or a paid troll. CIA has enough pennies to print and throw around.
This person doesn’t appear to want to hear anything that challenges their view of China, but for anyone else here is one article: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/04/chinas-deadly-secrets/
There is plenty more coverage along the same veins.
I will take the Amnesty Trust Me Bro organisation as a source of facts, thank you!