I’m fucking ashamed of my country for supporting Israel. They seem like evil bastards at this point, just committing wholesale genocide and for what?
Hamas killed 1200 with about 500 to 600 civilian deaths so Israel kills over 21000 with of 19000 civilian deaths with 8000 being children . I really hope america finds someone else to elect president other than Biden who wants to send more weapons to Israel or Trump who is facing 90 criminal charges. There has to be a better option right ? I wouldn’t be able to bring myself to vote for either one of those people .
Trump would also send more weapons. Dont forget he supported the settlements and moved the embassy
It is a real shame as the USA has had opportunity after opportunity to be a global leader, yet they seem to a) ignore their own people’s wishes and b) favor the industrial military complex to the point that it is undermining everything including their own regime. The shortsightedness is so foolish. I say this as a Canadian who loves America but am seeing a serious decline which Canada seems to also be following. The people are not being represented yet we are constantly told we should be grateful that we have such a great democracy. I feel delusional and deeply concerned.
The US definitely do not have a great democracy, if you can even call it that
It’s a kleptocratic plutocracy cosplaying as a secular federal republic with democratic elections.
The political form of our economic system. Military industrial complex is what defines foreign policy based on the exploitation of other country’s resources on behalf of private companies. This is where the money that funds politics comes from. Politics no longer determine this economic arrangement because both parties consent to it.
The people are being represented in some ways and it’s more complex than “don’t send weapons.” Most likely polling for Biden team is showing that swing states have voters who support the Israeli military and so throwing their support behind it benefits them. Plus it helps a geopolitical ally of ours. Whether it’s the right thing or not isn’t my point, simply that there’s more to this and that technically by some polls it is widely supported. Other polls have it not as supported, but I’d bank on the Biden team knowing where to throw weight and where to give in.
Suggesting there’s a better option breaks American’s brains.
Because that’s not how it works.
It’s too late for Dems to field an alternative that doesn’t just play spoiler and get Trump elected. And barring some massive turn of events, the spell Trump has on the GOP isn’t going to break. Americans need to game it out long term and think strategically about who will be more likely to lead to the kind of change you’d like to see. Even if you think Biden won’t do any of the things you want to see happen, at least there will be room to talk about it under him. A second Trump presidency will again smother outside opinions under a cloud of chaos and cruelty and incompetence. If you like the abiity to protest - remember how it was dealt with under Trump. Which means for anyone with a shred of humanity - plug your nose if you have to and vote Biden.
It’s only too late because Americans’ brains are broken.
Good take–hate on Americans while ignoring the Americans correctly explaining to you how the American electoral system is broken. Spend more time telling Americans that want viable third parties that they need to also support ranked-choice voting, and less time casting shade. If there’s any truth in your words, its simply that people need to know that having viable third parties REQUIRES ranked choice voting. I’m terrified that the US “No Labels” party will hand the election to Trump, because under the current system, ANY third party is an election spoiler.
There isn’t only 2 options. It’s insane that you keep voting for the same 2 corrupt useless parties when you have several others to choose from. And if everyone keeps saying “but they’ll never make it” they actually won’t. Only if you start voting for them the 2 party system can be abolished.
As a staunch Bernie supporter, I’ve accepted that America is currently too broken to consider alternatives. We are on the brink of full collapse of our entire democratic system and have already been through an insurrection that a large percentage of the population is perfectly okay with. We’re heading toward full blow autocracy with another greedy Putin / Xi at the helm which will threaten the entire world so cut us some slack if we need to be pragmatic for the time being.
My only hope in the US right now as a socialist, is that the current neoliberal death spiral between the two consenting parties will eventually lead to people saying enough is enough in a meaningful political way, that combined with labor organizing. Every use of the word “realistic” to bolster the current arrangement of the parties is evidence they’re still comfortable with it in some manner and believe in it, that they still consent to this “reality.” The continued erosion of the social contract will change this over time, then they’ll either turn their dissatisfaction towards an internalized “other,” or they will choose the solidarity option and throw the bosses of their backs.
Accepting things are bad and displaying how this affects you to others is the bare minimum to even begin to organize against this system. Any time a Democrat supporter tries to do the “realistic” or “clearly better but not good” thing they’re rationalizing and regulating what should be a display of revulsion.
The problem is mathematical.
To win the presidential election, you need to win a majority of the vote in enough states to win a majority of electoral college votes.
If no-one gets 270 electoral votes, then the House of Representatives meets. Each state delegation gets 1 vote. Right now, that means that the Republican wins, due to e.g. Wyoming and Alaska getting just as much of a vote as NY and California, and Republican gerrymandering of swing states.
There’s literally no way for third party candidates to be elected president. The best that a third party has ever done was in 1860, a 4 way race between a Democrat, Republican, Southern Democrat, and Constitutional Unionist.
Lincoln, the Republican, got 39.8% of the vote but won 18 states and 180 electoral votes. The Democrat, Douglass, got 29.5% of the vote but only won a single state. Breckenridge got only 18.1% of the vote but carried most of the southern states. And Bell got 12.6% of the vote and carried 3 states - Virginia, Kentucky and Tennessee.
So Douglas ended up with more than twice as many actual votes as Bell, but got over 3x the electoral vote. And Breckenridge only got less than half as many electoral college votes that he’d need to win, and could realistically have only picked up Bell’s.
The last time a third party candidate won a single electoral college vote was in 1968, when George Wallace won Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Arkansas and Louisiana. He was the former governor of Alabama, and had left the Democratic party after the 1964 civil rights law and 1965 voting rights law were passed by Johnson.
The Democrats are also more of a big tent than most parties in counties using party list PR would be. In Italy, AOC and Manchin wouldn’t be in the same party, while in the US they basically have to be to win.
The two party system exists for structural reasons. Plurality only works well in two candidate elections; third parties only do well in districts where they functionally replace a major party. Getting rid of the two party system is possible by changing the structure - switching to e.g. STAR voting in the senate and presidency and using e.g. MMP or STV in the House. But burying your head in the sand to pretend the structural issues don’t exist just doesn’t work.
Thanks for taking the time to write this comment. It is a pleasure to read informed and educational comments.
Well except the part where we’re on the brink of fascism and not voting will get Trump elected, which is completely idiotic to toy with
So, in that case, backing genocide was completely fucking idiotic to toy with.
Harm reduction arguments stop working when the harm reduction side STILL fucking backs genocide.
If that is the best we can do, and you expect me to be complicit with genocide by voting for someone who could stop it with one phone call but hasn’t, then maybe the system needs to break.
If you want to preserve it this system through genocide and ethnic cleansing, then that says something about your moral code, or lack thereof.
Trump governed like a milquetoast Republican and Democrats haven’t even tried to undo any of his legislative victories. They even committed more money to completing Trump’s stupid wall.
The difference is that he didn’t accept the peaceful transition of power at all. And they’re at it again with their new Project 2025, they’re aiming for fascism.
Project 2025 is a new iteration of something latent in your political system, Reagan was the first to explicitly reference unitary executive theory in signing statements which Bush Jr. also did.
Ultimately your founders didn’t define what the office of the president really means, and presidents have explored and pushed this position to the limits it exists as today. Trump maybe will succeed in finally exposing the critical faults that lie in the country’s founding notions.
My whole life since Reagan Democrats have been appealing to the idea that “this is the last chance” for democracy in the US in order to double-down on the consenting arrangement that has only spiraled further to the right, resulting in the current situation. Maybe it’s been true this whole time, but this “just vote Dem so we can fix it later” thing is clearly just making it worse, else you wouldn’t be in this situation.
Until Dems unite behind ranked choice voting and well-designed non-partisan redistricting, DESPITE the fact that they might lose seats to rando third party candidates, nothing will change. I wish the American populous of all political stripes knew about these necessary reforms and were willing to loudly fight for them. It would change the USA as we know it.
Electing Biden in 2020 didn’t stop them. We’re closer to fascist dictatorship than ever. What will electing Biden this time around do to stop them, so that we’re not on the precipice again in 2028, if not earlier?
It at least delays it. And the alternative is voting for Trump.
Who do you want to elect then? A third party that can’t mathematically get elected?
Democrats haven’t even tried to undo any of his legislative victories.
Except they have, did and are doing.
They even committed more money to completing Trump’s stupid wall.
Lie. They stopped completing the stupid wall. (But they didn’t break contracts which were already done and paid for).
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/06/us/border-wall-biden.html
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-67015137
Except they have, did and are doing.
I’m some cases they’re even doubling down on Trump’s policies. The Trump Tariffs, which the WTO ruled against in 2022, Biden condemned the WTO in response: https://www.politico.com/news/2022/12/09/wto-ruling-trump-tariffs-violate-rules-00073282
There isn’t right now, unfortunately.
That’s the consensus reality you’ve accepted yes, it’s also what got you to this situation and what will keep you on this downward spiral, until the social contract erodes to the point enough people lose faith in this consensus reality.
So tell us, who’s the better option that actually exists and is running and will have the dnc allow them to run?
You’re not convincing the entire country to suddenly vote 3rd party in under a year…
Oh I wouldn’t bet a dollar on being able to convince Americans they have other options, despite them having a system where basically anyone can run for office. They’re completely enraptured with the consensus reality you express here and the political system is designed to keep them engaged in it. Only when you lose faith in this reality will anything change, the material conditions of your life will convince you.
I think a rather large portion of the population has lost faith in the system, the fact that we all feel like the only thing we’re voting for is “not the handmaid’s tale” as opposed to voting for something speaks volumes. A vote for Democrats today is simply a vote for “Not the Republicans.” We have nothing to vote for and not an insignificant number of us realize that.
We don’t have real options because even though there are other parties we have an entire society built to prevent that, everything from the political parties themselves to the media that keeps the population mislead/underinformed. Our entire society is built to protect the status quo for the wealthy.
I wish all it took was being jaded, we’re well ahead on that one. I think it’s why Trump even exists as a political entity at all, the Republican voters have also given up on the system. I think the problem shows the difference in how we choose to “solve” the issue. “Conservatives,” completely going against their name, want to burn it all to the ground via Trump and start “new.” Democrats seem to believe in some aspects of the system and want to rebuild from within the current structure. The political structures of RNC & DNC obviously want nothing but the status quo.
To suggest options exist without laying them out suggests your ignorance of reality might be greater than the Americans. How would a people trapped in an externally imposed set of political constraints be able to recognize their alternatives without some more perspective being shared.
The alternatives have been explored from the American perspective. If there is a path we have missed, please enlighten us.
The main candidates will sue your for running for president. People register for it every year and get sued out of a campaign.
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Its not the existence of a better option, no, the possibility of third option freaks them out.
The thing is, we do typically have 4-7 choices on the presidential ballot. Unfortunately our voting system strongly discourages voting for other parties if you want to actually affect the results.
More like voting for a third party is currently pointless with the way our voting system works…
That’s more accurate way to say it, because they use “better” as a justification for not entertaining a third option that is actually good.
That’s what first past the post voting systems systematically offer, “bad” or “very bad” options. Change the system and you’ll see a big difference
How? Ranked choice voting and well-designed non-partisan redistricting are necessary reforms that too few people know about. We need a duo of liberal and conservative billionaires that make this their pet issue, a handful of country music stars, pop stars, and hip-hop/rap/RnB artists behind it and we’d get it in a heartbeat. Fuck, Elon Musk could distract people from the media nightmare that is his mouth and become a big advocate of it and we’d have Chads burning down the internet for these reforms the next day.
I’m solid on identifying the systematic issues at play historically and how they could have have been avoided, but how best to proceed from here is way more dynamic and probably beyond my expertise. Billionaires benefit from status quo, and if they or their populist goons were involved in the reforms I’m pretty leery of how good the outcome could be. I lost the ability to imagine a good path forward for America, which is part of why I left.
Hamas killed 1200 with about 500 to 600 civilian deaths
Minus a few hundred Israel killed with “friendly fire”.
Oh we’re doing that? If so, take a couple thousand off the other side that Hamas killed with their rockets. 25% of those never make it out of the Gaza strip, landing on their own civilians instead of making it to Israeli population centers.
Your numbers are off by an order of magnitude.
Nah, even Hamas hasn’t managed to kill hundreds of thousands with their rockets. They only wish they could.
Wrong direction, and when the country you’re defending killed 8,000 children in two months, it’s not even funny.
Well going in the other direction is wrong. Hamas has killed lots of Palestinians with their rockets.
Does that number of civilians exclude civilians killed by the IDF or in the crossfire? Because if not it’s even lower.
When counting deaths in Gaza they don’t exclude those killed by the 20% of Hamas/PIJ/etc… rockets that land withing Gaza.
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moral high ground is not determined by the amount of casualties suffered by one side. there was a cease fire in place until October 6. It ended the next day. Israelis have lived in fear of terrorist attacks for too long. they have the right to defend their people and their land. and no, it’s not the land of third generation Gazans, who are majority descendants of Jordans who immigrated in the 40s.
Israelis have lived in fear of terrorist attacks for too long
And Gaza lived in fear of being bombed to the ground and murdered by the Israeli government for too long, while at the same time having all of their land stolen.
And who’s land is it then? Third generation Israelis whose grandfathers just decided to take already occupied land? That’s a funny bit.
I love how Israel is supposedly the victim all throughout their short history, yet, for some strange reason, they always gain something out of every conflict they, supposedly, get dragged into.
Edit: plus, it’s stupid to think that the israeli government didn’t want this to happen. They knew that oppression would lead to a response, and that response would justify further attacks on Gaza until they gain full control. For countries like that, what’s a few of their citizens’ lives in exchange for power? The US taught them well in that regard.
There has to be a better option right ?
Yes, if anti-war is your main thing, then Libertarians. But you’d have to get not only yourself but 20 of your friends to vote for them for them to have a chance.
https://www.lp.org/we-stand-alone-as-a-beacon-of-peace/
Note though that this means they’re ideologically against supporting Ukraine as well.
They seem like evil bastards at this point,
They’ve been since at least 1948.
The world’s least effective 70 year genocide! Those bastards. /s
Uh… Look at the Palestinian population living in Israeli controlled territory then vs now.
The 1931 census, carried out by the British, found a total population of a bit over a million people. Looking at other estimates doesn’t have it increasing that much between 1931 and 1947.
Israel’s population is currently about 9.7 million, which doesn’t count the ~5 million Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. So about 15x the population as in 1931.
In Israel, there’s currently around 7 million Jews and 2 million Arabs. About 80% of Arab- Israelis are Sunni Muslim, 9% are Christian and 9% are Druze.
So, uh, it looks like the Muslim population of the land that is current Israel has more than doubled since 1947?
There were other groups that made the argument that that wasn’t genocide because the population of the target group increased.
You really want to make the same exact arguments holocaust deniers make?
I mean, to make that argument about the holocaust you’d need to lie about the numbers.
There were 17 million Jews worldwide in 1939, but only 11 million in 1945. In Europe, the population went from 9 million Jews just before the holocaust to only 3 million Jews continent-wide after it - even counting those in allied and neutral countries.
Poland, before the holocaust, had over three million Jews; 90% of them were murdered by the Nazis. Those people didn’t just evaporate.
Meanwhile - did I lie about the numbers? Keep in mind, 2 million is the current number of Israeli citizens of Palestinian heritage.
They’re Holocaust deniers. No one said they were smart.
The point is, even if they were right with the numbers, it wouldn’t matter because the logic of the argument is wrong. Both ethically, and factually.
High birthrates are the natural human reaction to trauma such as war and generational thinning. Hint: remember, the population of Palestine under 18 was 52%
Just because you did a shitty job, or weren’t strong willed enough to follow through to completion, or did it slowly, doesn’t mean you didn’t try.
P.s. that word thinning? I didn’t pock that randomly. That’s what Israels political leaders call what they do.
‘Thinning the population’, and ‘mowing the grass’.
I said look at the map, not the number, for a reason. These people (generally) aren’t getting murdered. They’re getting displaced.
What exactly is the map going to tell you?
There’s almost two million Palestinian citizens of Israel. In 1952, Israel gave citizenship to the ~160k Palestinians living in Israeli territory who hadn’t fled during the 1948 war; they lived under martial law until 1966.
No one is displacing Palestinians in Israel; Israeli settlers are displacing Palestinians in Palestine.
What exactly is the map going to tell you?
The displacement of Palestinians in and after the Nakba. The 160k Palestinians living in Israel in 1949 weren’t the ones who hadn’t fled, they were the ones who were allowed to stay. Most others ere either physically expelled from their homes or left fleeing IDF massacres. Look up Benny Morris’s 4-stage analysis.
You definitely didn’t say that.
Yeah you’re actually right; I said it in my next reply down the chain, my bad.
Palestinian population increased by some 500% since the founding of Israel in 1948. The goal of the current Israeli operation is the destruction of the actually genocidal Hamas, not of Palestinians.
Look at the map of where Palestinians are living in 1948 (or hell, even 1966) vs now. Then you’ll see why it’s called a genocide.
That would be a map of the whole of Israel. Palestinian Arabs who want to live in peace in Israel are doing exactly that, and have positions across all ranks of Israeli society, including an Arab judge that sent a corrupt Israeli politician to jail.
Might you be referring to that debunked collection of four maps, which use the same two colours to show different things in the hope that people will just jump to incorrect conclusions without doing too much research?
Israel is the most amazingly incompetent genociders on the planet. The genocided Palestinian population is shrinking at a large negative percentage every year, going from a few hundred K to several million. Even in the current campaign in Gaza they’ve only achieved a mortality rate of about four bombs per person. If you’re doing a genocide, what you really need to do is drop a single bomb on a hospital and kill 500 people in one go (or was that a Hamas misfire that landed in a car park and lightly singed a couple of dozen cars?)
That would be a map of the whole of Israel.
Have you seen the West Bank?
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Then Israel is failing miserably because they’re intentionally killing a whole lot of innocent Palestinians.
Yeah, just killed tens upon tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians since 1948. No big deal.
Certainly Israel could have been more optimal in its handling of the Palestinian psuedo-states since 1967. And there are plenty of instances of actual evil activity by Israel and her citizens (see Settler violence in the West Bank as a perfect example of that). However the idea that Israel is committing a genocide is just hyperbole and it cheapens and discredits those who make that claim.
https://kbin.social/m/worldnews@lemmy.ml/t/588452/Israeli-Government-Mulls-Forcible-Permanent-Transfer-of-2-2-Million-Gaza
They’re literally targeting all infrastructure that makes life possible in the strip. Not for Hamas, but for Palestinians.
They’re PUBLICLY talking about moving all Palestinians from the Gaza strip in the Sinai desert, or forcing other countries to take them in. That is LITERALLY the definition of ethnic cleansing. In those situations, especially the desert one, children die first. That’s the fucking point.
You’re being a smug asshole defending ethnic cleansing while literally pulling nothing but shit out of your ass.
That would be the goal of the only genocidal apartheid ethnostate in the Middle East. Working as intended.
The only?
Where the fuck do you think Turkey is?
Is Turkey an apartheid state?
Ask a Kurd
Ask an Armenian
Yes. Hasn’t always been, but the Kurds are very much persecuted.
Ask the Kurds.
Many Arab Jews moved to israel out of free will they weren’t forced off the land.
Anti Semitism was very low in the Arab world until israel started doing their ethnic cleansing of Palestine. Now there are some Arabs that fell into the Zionism == Judaism trap.
This israeli guy that went to Morocco failed to find Jew haters
The arab and Ethiopian jew got scammed. Their babies got stolen and maybe killed, the women went through sterilizing without knowing, and many don’t get the same right as English Jew…
It is literally a Zionist organization that behave like the Nazis
And many more
ArabPalestinian Israelis are treated like second class citizens. Your point flops.Jewish Arabs aren’t mistreated nearly as much as Muslim Arabs in israel.
The IDF literally asks for people’s religion at checkpoints.
What happens if you tell them “I’m an atheist.”?
They’ll say “you must be very smart please pass along in a wide arc so the edge doesn’t cut us”
No but in all seriousness anyone who isn’t Jewish gets discriminated against even Christians, so atheist Jews just say they’re agnostic or secular or just “not practicing their religion”. Found this article talking about it.
Though it they already have an israeli ID from for example their parents, they are of course less likely to be held up.
https://jpost.com/Israel-News/Why-are-there-so-few-atheists-in-Israel-436070
Ah so, if you were an ex-muslim, they would still probably fuck you up?
You two are saying the same thing.
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The rest of the Arab world has less than 15,000 Jews lol. Israel is just the only country that hasn’t finished their ethnostate.
Most Arab countries aren’t ethnostates AFAIK. What happened to Arab Jews is absolutely despicable, don’t get me wrong, but it doesn’t constitute an ethnostate.
Why not? What’s the difference ?
An ethnostate is a state for one ethnicity, not a state against one ethnicity, so to speak. Israel is, by their own admission, a Jewish state, so it’s an ethnostate. Arab states are very antisemitic, but they’re not hostile to non-Arabs as a whole.
Do you even see what you type? Arab states. Israel isn’t hostile to other ethnicities either by that same definition. In fact your entire statement applies to Israel the same way it applies to every single one of the Arab nations.
No? Israel has done a lot of shit to Ethiopian and Yemeni Jews, for example. They also discriminate against Holocaust survivors. Israel has allowed ethnicities (most, but not all, varieties of Jews). All other sizeable minorities get the ethnostate treatment.
Straight up baseless misinform.
I was taking liberties to sound clever.
The ethnic cleansing has been successful then.
Clearly this is Hamas’ doing /s
As intended
This is the best summary I could come up with:
He added: “In my 35 years of working in complex emergencies, I have never written such a letter – predicting the killing of my staff and the collapse of the mandate I am expected to fulfil.”
Thomas White, director of UNRWA affairs, tweeted on Friday: “Civil order is breaking down in Gaza – the streets feel wild, particularly after dark – some aid convoys are being looted and UN vehicles stoned.
The UN officials’ comments came as Israel intensified its strikes on Gaza, hitting more than 450 targets across the territory from land, sea and air in the 24 hours up to Friday morning.
His statement was an indication of growing dismay and frustration among western diplomats over the scale of civilian deaths in Gaza in the two-month war between Israel and Hamas.
Residents and the Israeli military reported intensified fighting in northern areas, where Israel had previously said its troops had largely completed their tasks last month, and in the south where a new assault was launched this week.
In a statement on Telegram, Hamas’s al-Qassam Brigades said its fighters had discovered a special forces unit mounting a rescue attempt and attacked it, killing and wounding several soldiers.
The original article contains 1,089 words, the summary contains 199 words. Saved 82%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
Hear me out…it might be time to release the hostages and for Hamas to surrender.
And you truly believe that Israel will stop with destruction, oppression, etc?
Israel withdrew from Gaza long time ago and was not occupying Gaza before Oct 7 when Hamas decided to declare war on it by massacring and kidnapping Israeli civilians.
Ah yes, the same talking point repeated over and over again. Next time try to use your brain instead of repeating the same line:
Despite the 2005 Israeli disengagement from Gaza,[15] the United Nations, international human rights organisations, and the majority of governments and legal commentators consider the territory to be still occupied by Israel, supported by additional restrictions placed on Gaza by Egypt.[100] Israel maintains direct external control over Gaza and indirect control over life within Gaza: it controls Gaza’s air and maritime space, as well as six of Gaza’s seven land crossings. It reserves the right to enter Gaza at will with its military and maintains a no-go buffer zone within the Gaza territory. Gaza is dependent on Israel for water, electricity, telecommunications, and other utilities.[15] The extensive Israeli buffer zone within the Strip renders much land off-limits to Gaza’s inhabitants.[101] The system of control imposed by Israel was described in the fall 2012 edition of International Security as an “indirect occupation”. Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip
Or are you trying to convince me that Gaza is a paradise on earth? Why do you think those tunnels exists at the first place? Have you heard of freedom of movement? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement. How would you feel if you are not allowed to leave 41sq. km, don’t have a single functioning airport, you can’t even use the territorial waters, because they are also controlled by Israel, and your whole economy is heavily restricted. But yes, continue repeating yourself that Israel is a spotless angel who don’t have anything to do with the events from the 7th of October.
Don’t forget filled with the constant sound of drones to the point people can’t sleep or study, a majority of their water isn’t drinkable, they don’t control their own trash, and they restricted the amount of calories into their to be the bare minimum at one point.
Not a paradise but not too bad of a prison either https://nitter.net/imshin/status/1733819052659740965?s=20
The tunnels are built to provide strategic advantage over Israeli military superiority. Also to smuggle equipment for rockets which Hamas has plenty of and uses them regularly. Ordinary Gazans do not get to use the tunnels to hide and stay alive. They are needed as human shields instead.
Israel is far from being a spotless angel. Nothing in life is black and white like that. But Hamas started this one. And Israel cannot live with an organization that kidnaps, rapes and beheads people on its border
Yes, then why don’t you go and live there for half a year to see how much you are going to like it. These tunnels were first built to smuggle normal goods in and out of Gaza, and they were the reaction of the restrictions imposed by Israel of their freedom of movement.
For this conflict to really end both sides need to do some concessions and most importantly Israel should grant some basic human rights and freedom and ensure that perpetrators of the new order would be equally persecuted by law enforcement. What I see right now is that Israel is building even more checkpoints in the West bank, approving the building of new neighbourhoods in East Jerusalem and granting impunity to violent settlers. arresting Palestinians and keeping them in prisons without effective sentence and even when they are put into court, they are tried in a military court and not civil. Relatives of Palestinian prisoners can’t even visit them and there are a lot of reports of prisoner officers exerting physical and psychological harassment of those prisoners.
So tell me honestly, if you were on the other side of the barricade, how would you feel? Would you tolerate being treated like cattle and still be happy?
And honestly speaking I don’t see any political will in Israel to change the current status quo? They don’t want to make any concessions or start treating those people decently. How many times in interviews did Israeli politicians show any will for a two-states solution? And mind you the overwhelming opinion of the international community is that the only viable solution leading to a long lasting peace is a two state solution base on equal treatment of people and mutual respect. And Netanyahu’s reply is what exactly? Arming settlers, building even more checkpoints to restrict their freedom of movement in the West bank, arresting even more Palestinians and talking of another military occupation of Gaza and building of another buffer zone from inside Gaza.
So explain to me how is this fair and do you think it would improve the prospects of long lasting peace in the region? It is almost like Likud and the far right parties are using the current conflict for even more polarising of the Israeli society and land grab.
I agree with your analysis of Israel. I don’t see much hope for change there, unfortunately and looks like this sentiment will only grow stronger from now on. However the discussion was around Hamas specifically. They don’t want to live in peace alongside Israel. They completely deny the concept of Israel and will not stop until the last Jew is driven out. Can’t justify that either
You can’t kill an idea, you can replace it with a better alternative, and Hamas is an idea, like an ideological movement that is summarising the general discontent of Palestinian population with the current status quo. Every human being wants to live in peace and prosperity. Politics and religion is usually dividing people.
My point is that this war even if it manages to kill a big chunk of the military wing of Hamas and destroy their weapons, won’t kill the idea and will do quite the opposite by strengthening the resolve of people to continue opposing Israel and support Hamas.
Funnily enough Hamas needs Likud and the other far right factions in the Israelian government to flourish and vice versa. They have formed a symbiotic relationship even though officially they are mortal enemies. But if Israel and Palestine manage to find a recipe for a long standing peace based on equal terms, then Likud and the other far right factions and the terrorist organisations in Palestine will lose a big chunk of their support.
Sadly, I don’t see this happening anytime soon as both parts are already too invested in the current bloodshed. And considering that Israel is a “democratic” country with a far superior military power one is logically expecting that they should be the initiator of a peace process that will try to mend the wounds from the current war. What I am currently seeing is zero interest from Israel to do something like this.
Surrender and what? Go back to living in an open-air concentration camp, only this time with the addition of ethnic cleansing?
Surrender and nothing. Surrender and live in 1/6th of the land you used to have with far fewer resources.
Unfortunately, I think that keeping up resistance against Israel and forcing them to do what they’re doing as loudly as possible is the best option they’ve got.
Surrender and live 10 more years, dying to malnutrition and plague instead of bullets
Yeah exactly.
Gaza is only an “open air prison” because it’s controlled by a jihadist organization fixated on a religious genocidal fantasy and willing to commit funds, resources and civilians’ lives towards it. Its’ crucial to remember that Gaza borders Egypt as well. The Israeli and Egyptian blockade of Gaza is a legal, defensive measure taken as a result of Hamas’ intentions, threats and violence, not the other way around. Israel left Gaza in 2005 withdrawing all civilians and military, and is met with hostility and violence from the territory ever since. Leaving Gaza unchecked while Hamas operates it as a terror-state would only bring about exacerbated violence and death.
Give up the weapons, stop bombing and killing people and Israel might get rid of the fence. Worth a try…
They should’ve just asked the guards nicely and maybe they would’ve opened up the gates of Auschwitz but these darned resistances just didn’t want to stop.
Again, Gaza is no prison. It has a border with Israel and also with Egypt. Before the Oct 7th massacre Gazans were crossing to Israel for work every day.
Here’s how life in “Auschwitz” looked like https://nitter.net/imshin/status/1733819052659740965?s=20
You keep repeating Gaza is not a prison. I agree, it’s a concentration camp.
so, all Hamas needs to do is surrender and give up all their weapons and Israel will go back to the relationship before Hamas?
the relationship defined by occupation, fences, and a systematic annexation of Palestinian land.
you make the mistake of not knowing history, they tried it for over 45 years with negotiation, the ONLY time Israel backed out of any region was due to military force, so, why should they assume it to be any different this time?
You are right. I’m don’t know the history of this conflict enough to have an informed discussion about it. My comment was more wishful thinking than any founded opinion. It’s just that all alternative scenarios are much more terrible than this one.
I actually do know the history of the region which is why arguing with someone like you who seems to live in a fantasy world where Hamas, the peace seekers (and all round good guys) tried to get Israel out of their (?) land by negotiation.
The constant bombings, missile attacks and three all out invasions of Israel (for genocide) never happened and Hamas and their precursors were just trying logic and reason the whole time 😂
So, you have an issue with time, ok there is this concept of “before” and the concept of “after”, now before Hamas even existed, Israel was literally straight up occupying Gaza, afterward Israel only blockaded them.
And yes, it is their land, the same way that India isn’t British land, Ukraine isn’t Russian, Brazil isn’t Portuguese, etc., etc., etc…
Now no one said that Hamas was the “good guys”, but the assertion that Israel is, is comical, at best Also, the Genocide thing is a bit far stretched, and requires an interpretation that would make Israel just as, if not more, genocidal.
And yes, if the only way you have ever been able to gain anything was through violence, why wouldn’t you choose violence? because it hurts your feefees that a white person had to die? meanwhile, the not-violent west bank gets to watch as soldiers who bravely kill children are awarded with medals.
so much for “knowing the history of the region”
Lol you gave me a good laugh with this and I lost it when you said ‘the genocide thing is a bit stretched’.
I think most Iranian officials start their morning by saying ‘What a nice day to kill all Jews!’
Hamas was even crazy enough to put ‘kill the Jews’ in their original manifesto.
The difference here is that as hard as you Hamas ball fondlers try to spin it otherwise, if Hamas surrenders and let’s the hostages go, Israel will in turn end the war and the killing stopped. The other choice is that Israel stops fighting in which case the Palestinians and pals will do exactly what they’ve said they want to do - commit genocide.
ok, you have officially gone into the territory of “my enemy is literally worse than Satan”.
also, so what? The AFU put kill the Boer in their manifesto.
And lastly, you show how fucking little you actually know about any of this, or how little you care, because the one thing that sentence was right on is committing genocide, because to the Netanyahu government it was never about the hostages, and they have already declared that this war will continue until they are sure that every last member of Hamas is dead. Now, how do you do that to an insurgency without genocide is anybody’s guess.
Wtf are you talking about? The straw manning is crazy. They never said Hamas was the good guys in that comment or that they tried to get land through negotiation. They were talking about the relationship with Palestine before Hamas. Hamas was a result of the failures of those negotiations.
If you oppress people and take their land without a peaceful resolution, of course a violent, terrorist group will result. We’ve seen it in other countries, too, from the IRA in the UK to the ANC in South Africa and the BLA in the United States. If Hamas were to disappear an equivalent is just going to appear again without the underlying conditions that caused them to be created being solved, or without full ethnic cleansing, which is obviously the route Israel would prefer.
I think you are conflating between Gaza and the West Bank. Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. No occupation, no fences (other than a border) and no annexation of land
Due to the massive amounts of undue power the blockade gives Israel over Gazans’ lives, many organizations (including the UN) consider Gaza still under Israeli occupation.
Gazans used to cross to Israel on a daily basis for work (since October 7th, I don’t see that happening anymore)
What about Egypt ? What is their role in this “open air prison” ?
Speaking as an Egyptian, Egypt is mostly doing it for American aid. That said, the Egyptian government (Arab leaders generally are, but Egypt even more so) is a traitor to the Arab and Muslim people, and an accomplice to Israel’s crime against humanity. Ayone involved in the blockade on Egypt’s end (and Israel’s, but doubly so for Egypt’s) out of their own will should be hanged.
I mean, some did. With special visas and stuff. That still means they’re occupied.
by UN definition, what Israel is doing in Gaza is still an occupation, the IDF has cut every single route out, even going as far as to patrol a 1km wide strip on the border of Egypt and Gaza for years, why do you think the Gaza-Egypte supplies (like the WMD that is KFC or an old car) are all transported via kilometers long tunnels?
At which point do you believe that Hamas will disarm its arsenal of rockets firing regularly at Israel ? What would need to happen for Hamas to do that you think ?
we could start with not shooting anyone the snipers on the border can see, maybe lift the blockade, stop trying to starve them out (most Gazans don’t even reach 40 due to malnutrition and IDF “grass cutting”), maybe don’t limit them to 4 days of water a week, let them rebuild and operate their own power plant again, stopping IDF supported Pogroms in the west bank (yes the very same the occupied the IDF as Hamas attacked), stopping the illegal settlements, actually allow for a 2-state solution where Israel doesn’t control all the water etc…
The list is long, it won’t happen overnight, but such is the bed that the Israeli government has made.
But don’t worry, they are going with the genocide route, because the Zionists in Israel are mainly not the survivors of the holocaust, but fervent nationalists so far removed from the horrors of the Nazi regime, that they openly mock holocaust survivors, and completely disregard those who got shipped off to gulags by the Russians and/or couldn’t move to Israel before 1953 (because any of them that came after 1953 aren’t real Jews to begin with)
Would’ve worked for the West Bank.
It might be time for Israel to agree with the hostage exchange Hamas put forward a bunch of times and stop genociding the civilian population of Gaza.
Which one ?
The one they put forward less than a week after the attack. Releasing hostages in exchange for concessions from Israel has been the plan all along.
1000 convicted terrorists per hostage. Now you see why Israel didn’t agree to it?
“convicted terrorist” doesn’t mean shit when the “convicted terrorists” are literal children.
Children means anyone up to age 19. The US has plenty examples of “children” in that age group committing school shootings. It just happens that in the PA, they’re taught to “go stab a jew” in schools instead.
ah, yes, America, the shining example of how to respect human rights.
In Israel, children are abducted for something as small as throwing a rock at a hmmwv and detained without trial for decades. but tell me more about how israel is actually right.
Those same children are taught in school that Jews should be hated and killed. Tell me how the PA is right?
Why? They are winning if they don’t lose. If they surrender the israeli terrorists won’t stop their genocide
The only people protecting Gazans now are Hamas in the absence of the secritiy council and whatever power it has. Ironic, sad, but true.
October 7th was wrong, but what would be even more wrong now is to abandon all those Gazans and stop fighting all those Israeli tanks shelling everyone’s home.
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Hmmm i don’t support Hamas.
If you actually gave two shits about the Palestinians you’d be calling for Hamas to surrender, release the hostages so this war can end.
Israel won’t abandon their hostages which is obviously why Hamas took them to force this war.
No point arguing with a propagandist like yourself though…have you noticed that public opinion is shifting against Hamas? Better get even more hysterical mate! 😂
Israel doesn’t care about their citizens, they’re carpet bombing Gaza and flooding tunnels they know the hostages are in. They had the option to just do a hostage exchange since day one. This is some mixture of annexation and Netanyahu trying to hold on to power.
In what universe do you live? Hamas pulled out of the continuing the hostage exchange. Israel wanted women returned but Hamas wouldn’t agree…let’s be honest it’s because all the rape and torture would make their propaganda war tricky
Hamas’s cited reason was that Israel was demanding female soldiers, while the terms of the “pause” dictated the exchange of civilians. It seemed like Israel simply wanted an excuse to continue bombing.
let’s be honest it’s because all the rape and torture would make their propaganda war tricky
Let’s be honest about this having no substantiation at present and being based on Israeli and U.S. State Dept propaganda. Honestly it’s disgusting how quickly people will resort to insinuations like this.
I know! All those raped (verified by Hamas body cam footage) on Oct 7 and people start to think Hamas are going to keep raping the hostages when they get them back to gaza. What a crazy leap right?!
At what point will you rejoin reality bud?
Is it verified by that? Can you provide the footage? Pretty sure this is incorrect.
Hamas cares even less for the lives of Gaza civilians. They cowardly hide in their tunnels, take humanitarian supplies by force from the population and shoot at Gazans when they try to escape from their human shield purpose.
All of these crimes have been documented and you can find them online. Hamas is a dictatorship jihadistic organization who controls the population by fear
What about Gazans? Do you believe they deserve to have 20 Oct 7th done to them every single night?
No, they don’t deserve it. If you were Israel, and 1200 of your people would have been murdered, raped and 400 were taken hostages, what would you do differently?
- Not carpet bomb
- Not detaining Palestinians in undisclosed locations
- Not starving the population
- Not bombing hospitals, mosques, and the few fucking churches there.
- Negotiate peace with Palestinians and restore their full rights
- A one state solution where everyone gets to vote, as they always should have been allowed to
What would you do “differently” since those Gazans don’t deserve to die in a crowded hospital after a failing amputation attempt because there are no meds and Israel is shelling outside?
Btw I just want to say that 17 thousand of my “people” have already been killed by Israel since I’m Palestinian.
Hamas already did release the hostages, the ones the IDF haven’t killed in airstrikes at least
Airstrikes don’t affect underground tunnels where Hamas hides with all the humanitarian supplies and fuel along with the precious hostages while the less privileged Gazans suffer above
damn, you really believe that, don’t you?like the massive supply bunkers below the hospital?, the hospital that they had laid siege to for days before storming it, meaning that Hamas should have not been able to get anything out, and the greatest horror was a few guns, a diaper, and a bomb shelter that Israel put in when they built the building, full of jack shit.
Every Palestinian in Gaza knows they are using hospitals, mosques, schools to conduct their military operation from there. Have you seen them wearing uniforms in their videos?
This is no secret, it’s playbook assymetric warfare tactic I honestly don’t understand the denial about it. Do you expect them to have some military base with a helicopter landing so Israel can bomb it in a second?
Damn, imagine wounded combatants being treated at hospitals, of course you happen to forget that Hamas doesn’t even have a uniform, nor that it’s still a war crime to attack hospitals.
The justification of Israel to bomb hospitals always shows the building its self full of tunnels and storing red exploding barrels. because anything less than that is a war crime…
the only person in denial about anything here is you and the Geneva convention.
There are no hostages in Ba Sing Se.
Got it.
It’s sad seeing you make such a reference because clearly you didn’t even understand anything from that show.
Says you under a headline that read s “Gazan society On brick of full blow collapse”.
It’s collapsing because of Israeli indiscriminate bombing yet you make no demands on the genocidal freaks pulling the trigger.
Shame on you
October 7th was wrong
Correction: Some individual actions taken on October 7th (with no evidence they were Hamas policy) were wrong. October 7th as a whole was resistance against a foreign occupier, which is allowed under international law.
Wow this is a very delusional take. Hamas didn’t rampage into the “Settlements” of land that has been taken, they went deep into Israel. And I don’t think international law allows you to kill or capture civilians or children and hold them for ransom.
They didn’t hold them for ransom. They demanded the release of Palestinian prisoners in Israel, which Israel is detaining in a way that conflicts with international law (unlawful detainment, torture, withllding food, already several prioners have died in Israeli prisons since October 7th, but the correct word is that they were murdered/assassinated by Israel.
International law generally makes exceptions for actions that have military purpose. Israel created a status quo where one of the few things Hamas can do that actually make the lives of Palestinians better is take hostages, so from my understanding it’d be allowed by international law.
Your understanding of international law is absolutely frightening. Go ask ChatGPT that question before you say it out loud again.
Israel was not occupying Gaza, in fact it withdrew its settlements and all army forces in 2005. On October 7th, not a single Israeli soldier was in Gaza.
Thanks. That’s a good explanation of it.
But where does one draw the line between “Individual action” and “battalion action”?
When the atrocity in question was ordered or encouraged by the leadership. The point the blame passes from the individual to the institution is when the institution gets involved in the atrocity. So if Hamas had said “kill civilians” or “rape women” we’d have to blame Hamas for that, but as long as it’s a decision an individual made on their own only the individual bears responsibility.
so, if, for example, the head of government goes and awards medals to people shooting children you would assume that the government supports that, right?
Uh… Yes? Is that going on in Hamas?
It’s funny because literally the IDF gets pizza coupons for killing Palestinians. That’s how trivial Palestinian life is to the IDF.
What’s the standard for this in the U.S.? It reaches only as far up the ladder as anyone can definitively prove. Abu Gharib saw like, what, a lieutenant fired or something. But when it’s “the enemy”, all of a sudden we assume by default the decision came from the highest levels, and it’s carte blanche to wipe out 2.5 million people living in a giant concentration camp, in a supposed attempt to do regime change.
I mean, let’s be honest, this looks like a serious genocide attempt, and Bibi has been saying genocidal things every few days.
The “enemy” in their comment is Hamas. You’re agreeing with them.
Yeah. It isn’t that hard. Fuck Hamas
to be fair, the west bank doesn’t have Hamas, and the entire reason Hamas was so successful is that the army had to go guard the Pogrom against the Arabs in the west bank, so how’s that non-Hamas stuff working out?
I mean, fuck Israel too
It blows my mind we’re in a time and place where you get downvoted for wanting terrorism to end.
Also, even if wanting Hamas to surrender is just “wanting terrorism to end”, Hamas surrendering would be the biggest catastrophe to befall the Palestinian people since the Nakba. Israel will, at the very least, make Gaza like the West Bank, likely worse. They’ve already stated they want security control over Gaza, and we all know what that means.
Hamas doesn’t give two shits about the Palestinians under their control. How does being governed by a country that cares for human life worse than being ruled with fear by a terrorist organization that values killing Jews more than your own life?
Look at the West Bank; you’ll find your answer. Then remember that if Hamas surrenders, that’s Gaza’s best-case scenario.
And if Israel surrendered, every single person would be slaughtered.
israel doesn’t care for human life though.
That’s complete bullshit. Israel’s intense care for the lives of their citizens is how we ended up here. In fact if the iron dome wasn’t developed, we’d have gotten to this point even sooner, because protecting Israeli citizens (yes, that includes the Arab citizens as well) is Israel’s #1 priority.
their blatant disregard for human life and human rights begs to differ. hell, there are reports that top brass of the israeli government knew about the attack on october 7 beforehand and allowed it to happen, so they could use it as justification for bombing the shit out of Gaza.
how about wanting State Terrorism to end?
do you know how many people Israel abducts? https://www.btselem.org/administrative_detention
Kinda weird that Hamas only wanted prisoners back who were convicted of violent crimes then?
I’m happy we’re in a time and place where you get downvoted for wanting Gazans to go back to the pre-war status quo without even freeing their people behind Israeli bars, let alone surrender to Israel and get the West Bank treatment.
You can be both against terrorism and against imperialism.
October 7th wasn’t terrorism. It was military action against a foreign occupier.
You’re sick in the fucking head
You could’ve asked why first. I am not, BTW, defending atrocities committed during October 7th. These are different things.
Your comments say otherwise. Saying two contradictory things doesn’t suddenly make you right.
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I was gonna explain a lot of things, but after seeing your second sentence yeah that’s pointless. I’ll just mention that the UN already condemned Israel for war crimes in Gaza. Israel’s response is neither legal nor required for anything except to keep their brutal occupation going.
At this point you’re nothing better than a terrorist shill. I’ve been seeing your comments for the last week here. You’ve said nothing but misinformation the entire time.
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But what about all the sweet leverage Hamas gets by keeping the hostages!?! Surely that’s more important than the Palestinians!
🤮
Whatever your opinion on whose fault all of this is, Hamas, like Saddam in the 90s, initiated the perfect FAFO…
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Hamas should surrender.
why? Why shouldn’t Israel just abide by international humanitarian law and stop slaughtering civilians?
And do what instead? Say “oh jee Hamas, you got us!” And continue living with a constant threat over civilian lives???
Nothing will stop Israel except a Palestinian leader who actually stops preaching for violence and “resistance”, and doesn’t fund terror in the region. Meanwhile, 0 Palestinian leaders have done so. And when the Palestinian consensus is “destroy Israel”, why would Israel stop their invasion? They’re objectively evil in Israeli eyes, and Israel has the means to actually properly do something about it.
Actually maybe a third-party governing Gaza would also stop the Israeli invasion. But who tf would wanna take that role.
what about the other side of that coin? why should palestine give up? when they’re being oppressed by a genocidal apartheid state, which steals their land and slaughters their people, why would they give up? They have nothing to gain and everything to lose.
Nothing to gain? What about an actual decent level of living? Palestinians in the west bank aren’t happy, but they’re so much more happy than Palestinians in Gaza.
From their own point of view, Hamas rule brings nothing but destruction. Resisting more just slaps them back tenfold. No one wants that, ever. And if they do, then idk what to say to them. I sympathize with their suffering, but their choice is heavily to blame.
And oh please. Calling Israel a genocidal Apartheid state is exactly the propaganda which will cause more violence in the region. Do you want “justice” or do you want people not dying? Personally I don’t like people dying, so I like to not villainize any side, when both sides have suffered from the other’s aggression. Calling one side genocidal and the other martyrs is exactly why we have this conflict.
Nothing will stop Israel except a Palestinian leader who actually stops preaching for violence and “resistance”, and doesn’t fund terror in the region.
In that case maybe Israel should stop supporting the ones who do against the moderate PNA?
They 100% should and that should be the main criticism towards Israel. Them funding Gaza - which means funding the Gazan government - Hamas - is how they got such good weapons and a large arsenal as they did. The world should 100% condemn anyone who funds them, and yet barely anyone does.
Maybe the PNA is not the best case for peace in the region, since it pays for families of suicide bombers and calls for intifadas, but they’re 100% better than Hamas. And Israel should at least support them more than Hamas.
